Trusted sellers monopoly because of the scams ?

[Rolex116520]

People spending quite a bit of their TRF time on the watch out section will have noticed this as well I think . There seems to be quite a bit of scams and attempted scams reported linked to the WTS and WTB section lately . Would this mean that because TRF is probably the most popular and populated Rolex forum on the net and expanding rapidly they also draw the very wrong people more easily ? I frequent several other watch related forums and I have never noticed the same frequency of scam reports we have here . I have never bought nor sold on TRF myself nor any other forum and that is probably not going to happen in the foreseeable future ( unfortunately not buying and hopefully not selling I might add )
But , imagine I wanted to ... I gather that quite a volume of sales here are going trough 3 or 4 of the major reputable sellers on here and we can assume that we are all safe with those guys , but what about the occasional sellers ?
Again luckily most of those transactions seem to go smoothly as well , but unfortunately not all of them .
But ,let me come to the point . Doesn't that also reduce the chances for a one off seller except if he finds a local buyer to get a good price for his watch ? He might as well forget to sell overseas where the market for his watch could be better then locally . It reduces his chances a bit like being a 0 or low feedback seller on Ebay , no?
Buyers may be interested but too afraid or will only take a gamble when the seller drops his price considerably ? Not saying anything against the top sellers here , but they offer the same items at a higher price then the "newbie" and end up selling where poor "newbie " gets stuck with his watch .
Sure the top sellers are most probably professional sellers and have overheads that private seller don't have . They however seem to have the monopoly and more scams only reinforces their position .
If you check the criteria needed to be able to sell on TRF, then as a buyer it doesn't really inspire much confidence . Correct me if I'm wrong : 15 days old membership and as much posts ? Nothing more and it is for free ! I have seen spot checks by the moderators which can only be applauded by the potential buyers but these also seem far and few between .
Would implementing more rigorous conditions before someone is able to sell here not reduce the chances to get a crook and at the same time increase the credibility of a first time seller ? I'm not dreaming .. I know that you can do what you want there will always be one or two : Where is a will there is a way I recently saw posted by a moderator on a "scam" thread .
Sorry Stevo and the moderators if you have heard this 20 times before . You must have looked into it before .I'm sure . I also understand that a forum that doesn't even make money out of sales can not be held responsible for transactions between to private individuals , but you will agree if something goes wrong people will always associate TRF with it .

[Jason71]

All that is required to be able to sell your watch here on TRF and to be able to get a decent price for it, is to be a longstanding member with plenty of posts and make a name for yourself. I have never understood the newbies that sign-up for a membership, make a couple posts, and then try to sell a watch. Of course nobody is going to buy from them. However, how many people do you think would have felt comfortable buying JJ's watch? MANY, and he would be classified as the 'occasional seller'.

I feel confident that with almost 2200 posts and being a member for over 2 years..........that I could sell a watch here with little trouble. Could I sell it as easy and command the price that DavidSW gets? Probably not, but that's life.

[Numismatist]

Originally Posted by Jason71

All that is required to be able to sell your watch here on TRF and to be able to get a decent price for it, is to be a longstanding member with plenty of posts and make a name for yourself. I have never understood the newbies that sign-up for a membership, make a couple posts, and then try to sell a watch. Of course nobody is going to buy from them. However, how many people do you think would have felt comfortable buying JJ's watch? MANY, and he would be classified as the 'occasional seller'.

I feel confident that with almost 2200 posts and being a member for over 2 years..........that I could sell a watch here with little trouble. Could I sell it as easy and command the price that DavidSW gets? Probably not, but that's life.

OP: Thanks for the post - good to aire! As to the Watchout section and scams, I don't frequent there - what is happening?

Jason, right on. Market forces rule as they should. You develop a name and a rep and you also develop the ability to sell your watch. The newbie looking for a quick sale is going to get a different experience than a seasoned member looking to sell - that's as it should be.

[Rolex116520]

Jason , allow me to contradict you , or at least part of what you just posted and use an actual thread as argument . The seller in this case only had 50 posts and joined this January when it all went wrong .
Blame the buyer for being careless ? Sure I wouldn't have sent him the money under these conditions , but obviously others may do and have done .
Will a bonafide low post relative new member be able to sell his watch in the near future because of it ? I doubt it .
Not going to argue the rules of the market : Only I like to look upon a sales section as we have it on TRF a little different . This is a friendly " non lucrative " operation and hence should be considered a little different from the normal marketing techniques we would encounter in a purely commercial environment

[RolexWatcher]

TBH, I don't see an issue.

The trusted TRF sellers don't have a monopoly but it takes time to trust people. The trust earned is why trusted TRF sellers may sell a more than people with no track record. In turn, the ADs sell more as they have an established business with oversight from Rolex itself.

If someone wants to deal with someone with no track record and get a bargain, that's fine. Meet face-to-face at an AD, do checks on the watch etc. If a geniue seller with no track record wants to sell, they need to somehow earn the trust of the buyer. That's what it is all about.

To me, I don't see the Sales section as a friendly non lucrative community. I imagine this as your local flea market but that market sells Rolex.

[tattooedfagin]

Originally Posted by RolexWatcher

TBH, I don't see an issue.

The trusted TRF sellers don't have a monopoly but it takes time to trust people. The trust earned is why trusted TRF sellers may sell a more than people with no track record.

If someone wants to deal with someone with no track record and get a bargain, that's fine. Meet face-to-face at an AD, do checks on the watch etc. That's what it is all about.

x2

my 16610 was a face 2 face deal done outside of eBay, my DSSD was BNIB from an AD & i bought my 1680 from a guy with huge respect & a whole heap of history but i still thoroughly checked out all the addresses / bank details i'd been given prior to hitting the 'submit' button on the bank transfer. there's plenty of good guys on the TRF & in the other watch groups, it all comes down to buying your seller & doing your homework......and then, if you're still unsure just walk away still with cash in hand

[bayerische]

Pretty sure we can all agree on that "Bassethounds" made a pretty solid name for hiself, look what happened there...

So just because you're a good guy on a forum in cyberspace doesn't make your heart so.

Some sort of proxy system could be safe, but difficult to put to use I'm sure.

[Porsche]

Hmmm, obviously there are two extremes...

On the far left, people like me who are happy to take the easy, lazy and very safe option and buy from an AD....

and then over to the far right, people who want to "net" a bargain (excuse the bad pun), and get a bargain from eBay or similar. Well, you have do do all your homework, research, due-diligence, and try to minimise the risk (but maybe never eliminate it).

Of course in between these extremes there are choices as well, choices that offer the best of both (ie. the trusted seller here)

It's great that we have so many choices, caters to all needs.

[Rolex116520]

Some interesting arguments already :
Andreas : That is why I said and quoted a moderator " where there is a will there is a way "
John : I was exactly like yourself only recently I bought second hand purely because of economical reasons . Eliminated the risk by face to face at RSC because I had the option . I guess that would be Chad and Vincent's choice too

I would like to get the potential seller's point of view or the top seller's on this .
Let me make clear that I do not want to take a stab at the top sellers here , far from .
But , to me they are the ones that indirectly benefit from the scams .. maybe a bit like the AD's when we start seeing extremely close to real McCoy fakes hitting the market .
People just get too scared and "pay" for security .

[chicfarmer1]

I think the original post has two separate points woven together. One is the question of whether this area needs tighter vetting, and the other is the question of the effect of scammers on the ability of a personal seller to sell vs. the bigger names here. These are related but not the same points (in that some of the scamming comes from contacts by outside, non-TRF "sellers").

On another forum I frequent there's a selling marketplace with very tight controls. It involves linking to one's eBay feedback or another way to establish online safety of buying and selling, and it requires many more posts before selling, and a few other such details. The philosophy here and elsewhere I've seen is more to the effect of trusting buyers to take more responsibility onto themselves. This has its merits but also its risks. But I see that the intro sticky threads do emphasize due diligence to "play" here.

The other issue, of small sellers vs. the ones with bigger reputations, is sort of the nature of selling online, just as true at eBay and other such marketplaces. There's a niche for anyone, but I agree that scamming negatively impacts the occasional and few-post seller here. So be it, in my view. A personal, occasional seller can always participate longer and wait a year before trying to sell, have great credentials to share to a prospective buyer, etc.

[bayerische]

In my case, I would like to buy from TRF sellers, but since I'm in the EU, and 95% of all Rolex's on TRF for sale are in the US, it would mean MASSIVE taxes by finnish customs.

I'm lucky to have a good relationship both to my AD and my used watch dealer.

[Rolex116520]

Originally Posted by chicfarmer1

I think the original post has two separate points woven together. One is the question of whether this area needs tighter vetting, and the other is the question of the effect of scammers on the ability of a personal seller to sell vs. the bigger names here. These are related but not the same points.


The other issue, of small sellers vs. the ones with bigger reputations, is sort of the nature of selling online, just as true at eBay and other such marketplaces. There's a niche for anyone, but I agree that scamming negatively impacts the occasional and few-post seller here. So be it, in my view. A personal, occasional seller can always participate longer and wait a year before trying to sell, have great credentials to share to a prospective buyer, etc.

You are correct the two issues can be dealt with separately but they are indeed interconnected in this context .
Better vetting would be to boost newer sellers credibility and would not affect the established ones . It may affect them by having more competition when new sellers clear some extra security .
It is exactly because he can not wait another year and increase his post count he is obliged to become the new and untrusted seller . Getting much less for the watch he has to sell because he needs to sell now .
This brings us back to more control before you can offer a watch here . It would only be in the new sellers interest and it could eliminate some bad apples from the start .

[Jan Davis]

TRF has some solid sellers that have excellent feedback, a great client base, with low posts. Then you have regular TRF members with a whole lot of posts who do not sell anything. I would buy from the solid sellers, than just a TRF member who posts regularly without buying feedback.

[RolexWatcher]

Originally Posted by Rolex116520

You are correct the two issues can be dealt with separately but they are indeed interconnected in this context .
Better vetting would be to boost newer sellers credibility and would not affect the established ones . It may affect them by having more competition when new sellers clear some extra security .
It is exactly because he can not wait another year and increase his post count he is obliged to become the new and untrusted seller . Getting much less for the watch he has to sell because he needs to sell now .
This brings us back to more control before you can offer a watch here . It would only be in the new sellers interest and it could eliminate some bad apples from the start .

Having a tighter control sounds good but I believe it is harder to implement.

Also even with tighter control, the same due diligence by both buyer and seller as we have now should be used so that there isn't a false sense of security.

[Rolex116520]

Originally Posted by Jan Davis

I would buy from the solid sellers, than just a TRF member who posts regularly without buying feedback.

Exactly , posting is easy and that is the only requirement to be able to post a for sale add .
Take the most recent scam Mike -UK . 4 months 60 posts nothing more . I was given the opportunity to see what this seller provided to the buyer . Not even what is supposed to be his own name is linked with the payment . Had he pledged via paypal , sent a scan of his ID along with photo of himself holding that ID corresponding to the name on the paypal pledge . Mandatory picture with username and date with the watch on sale will reduce the use of borrowed / stolen pictures .
Not saying that info should be available to TRF members but to TRF management , Yes .
Again , nothing like this will eradicate fraud altogether , but I'm convinced it would reduce it drastically and deter the ones with the intention to do so .

[Rolex116520]

Originally Posted by RolexWatcher

Having a tighter control sounds good but I believe it is harder to implement.

Also even with tighter control, the same due diligence by both buyer and seller as we have now should be used so that there isn't a false sense of security.

Extra security measures would not demand additional equipment nor financial investment but would increase the workload of the managment and the moderators . We know they invest a lot of their time in TRF for free as it is , but I'm sure they would be more then happy to go the extra mile to create a more secure For Sale section .

I really can understand that the managment will argue that is up to the buyer to do all the checking up . I couldn't agree more , but making these checks mandatory will be a deterrent for most scammers .

[figbo]

I've been here for more than 3 years and bought my first Rolex from a guy with low post count without a problem.I'm not here to sell anything just enjoy the company.If I wanted to sell my watches,I'll sell them here,where everybody knows me and some personally.

[Frogman4me]

I understand the concerns but the reality is the buyer needs to be smart enough to make every measure to feel secure during the transaction. The term "buy the seller" is used so frequently on here buyers should live by it. Not all but most of the problems regarding scams the buyer tends to skip a step or two and does not feel 100% about something and still goes through with the deal. Just recently someone said I checked the reference and it does not exist? They checked after they sent the money!

I've bought and sold close to 30 watches over the past 12 months online and have never had a single issue. In short I buy the seller, check all references, acknowledge the return policy and use paypal. Nothing is a 100% but like a car alarm, low jack, a club and choosing a safe area to park for your vehicle the more measures you take the safer you are.

[RolexWatcher]

Originally Posted by Rolex116520

Extra security measures would not demand additional equipment nor financial investment but would increase the workload of the managment and the moderators . We know they invest a lot of their time in TRF for free as it is , but I'm sure they would be more then happy to go the extra mile to create a more secure For Sale section .

I really can understand that the managment will argue that is up to the buyer to do all the checking up . I couldn't agree more , but making these checks mandatory will be a deterrent for most scammers .

Although I am new here, I heard that there have always been arguments for and against changing the current set-up but believe the current set-up was the happy medium. In fact, I remember the moderators would sometimes prefer to close this sales section down than maintain it due to all the issues and potential issues.

We should also put this scams into perspective vs the honest trades.

Having said that, would be good to hear some of your suggestions and see if the mods agree :)

Some suggestions which mods may or may not consider depending on difficulty of implementation (just putting it out there - no offence):

- higher post cost
- IP log on member registration
- yahoo, gmail and other internet web emails not allowed for registration
- stop checks to include taking photos of the hands of the watch at certain times rather than posting pics with just username and date. (e.g. show watch at 7:20, etc)

But whatever it is, seller and buyer can't rely on this and should still be wary :)

[Rolex116520]

That would indeed solve the whole problem , but I still believe the for sale section is an asset to TRF as a whole .
I for one I'm scared to death to buy of the net , but there are some people here I would buy from without hesitation .

[roadcarver]

Things that you need to know:

1. High post count is one thing.... Just remember that there was an ebay gang that had an artificial high rating which gave buyers a false sense of security.
2. Make sure photo is from the seller. Ask for a photo with the seller's name on it with the current day's date.
3. Ask for quality references - but be careful as professional scammers can create create their own email addresses and pretend to be the users that they sold or bought from.
4. Check watchet . com's "good guys" and "deal watch" section.
5. If the deal is too good to be true, walk away!
6. Scammers are trying to imitate trusted sellers by copying a trusted seller's email but it could be missing a letter, and at first glance looks legit.

[kareemthedream33]

It stinks for the honest people trying to sell their watches but that's the way it goes. There is a lot of money exchanged and people are willing to pay extra for the peace of mind that comes with Oscar, Tony, David, or Greg....and it makes sense. With them, you know it's going to be a smooth and honest deal.

I brought this up in the MikeUK thread, ive been here almost a year, am a pledge member with 500+ posts, and I would have trouble selling here I think. My only references come from buying two watches from a trusted seller here, so I'm not sure how much that is worth. Either way, I see your point, some unscrupulous individuals have ruined it for the little guys.

[cgjane]

The only way I am going to buy from a "newbie" or "occasional seller" is to meet face to face with them at an AD and have the watch authenticated. Same as I did with an eb@y buy.

I am lucky to have 3 trusted sellers near me if I ever want to sell.

[Jan Davis]

Originally Posted by figbo

I've been here for more than 3 years and bought my first Rolex from a guy with low post count without a problem.I'm not here to sell anything just enjoy the company.If I wanted to sell my watches,I'll sell them here,where everybody knows me and some personally.

LOL & This is a guy holding a plunger. :-)

[Johny]

Originally Posted by Jan Davis

LOL & This is a guy holding a plunger. :-)

he would charge extra for the plunger. raf

[Rolex116520]

Originally Posted by Jan Davis

LOL & This is a guy holding a plunger. :-)

He is a professional in need of a Submariner

Right I'm highjacking my own f..ing thread now

[figbo]

Originally Posted by Johny

he would charge extra for the plunger. raf

People are so jealous of my plunger,it's unreal!Right,Johny?

[figbo]

Originally Posted by Rolex116520

He is a professional in need of a Submariner

Right I'm highjacking my own f..ing thread now

[STEELINOX]

I have a high post count but would prolly have a hard time sellin ANY ROLEXs here, cause I beat the crap out of em, literrally !

Anyone wanna buy a Gently Sawzalled Sub, oh, and thats recently been dropped on a tile floor; still runs within COSC !!!

[figbo]

Did you use Krazy glue for the cyclops?