The Masters 2013 Official Thread

[T. Ferguson]

Originally Posted by mtrunner

Why does everyone think Tiger should have disqualified himself? The only reason he was even called out was by a viewer calling in. The rule was put in to specifically protect players that are always under the microscope since they are on TV more often than other players. The committee made their decision he did nothing wrong and he signed the scorecard. Tiger thought he was proceeding correctly under the rule when he made the statement on TV after the round.

Without making the case for him to withdraw, the reason some people feel it would be the right thing to do is because the TV rule protecting a player from disqualification is designed for situations where he breached the rule because of facts "he did not know and could not reasonably have discovered". The problem in this case is that even though Tiger apparently didn't know know he broke a rule, he certainly could have known. I mean it is a written rule.

The issue is that the committee reviewed the situation before Tiger signed his card and had made the initial decision that there was no violation. Given that, it's hard to say that he should then face a DQ after he signs his card because the committee changed it's mind. On the other hand, once Tiger made statements saying he purposely dropped further back that sort of changes things. And it seems to me that just because it was brought to the attention of officials through TV shouldn't really be relevant because it involves facts he "could have reasonably known" had he known the rule.

This is why tour players quite often ask for a rules official even under circumstances they are very familiar with (like cart path or sprinkler head relief). Because once an official rules on it, they are off the hook if the ruling is wrong.

I can understand though, those that think he should withdraw mainly because even though the officials had ruled on it, they were not aware that Tiger had purposely dropped not as close as possible until his comments after the round. But then again, they should have discussed it with him before he signed his card. In which case he would have been informed he broke the rule and assessed a 2 stroke penalty and signed for the correct score. Since this is what ended up happening, it's hard to find fault - except maybe with how the officials handled it.

On the other hand, what would have happened if no TV viewers were involved and no officials reviewed the situation or even considered there may have been a violation - and then Tiger makes the comment that he purposely dropped further back after he signs his card? In this case it seems more clear that he should be DQ'd for breaking a rule and signing an incorrect card. So really, Tiger benefited from the TV rule in a way that it wasn't meant to protect players. Therefore, the call for him to withdraw is not that out of line either.

This isn't the first time Tiger has gotten what some consider an unfair advantage. Anyone remember the boulder incident?

[advocatia]

The boulder was a movable obstruction. It just took the help of eight guys to move it.

[The Joker]

Why are the spectators called patrons by the commentators? Bit snooty ain't it.

[Lol-x]

Adam Scott is 1 stroke from the lead going into the last round.
He's endorsed by Rolex and an Australian, so it's impossible for him not to win ........just don't tell Greg Norman

[HRV]

Should be a great finish

[crew]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Why are the spectators called patrons by the commentators? Bit snooty ain't it.

Because that's how Agusta National Golf Club wants it. They control everything that goes on or is said about their tournament. Agree or disagree, that's their privilege.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by crew

Because that's how Agusta National Golf Club wants it. They control everything that goes on or is said about their tournament. Agree or disagree, that's their privilege.

Ok got it. So do you think if I turn up today with this head attire, I'll be ok?

[gulfstream69xr7]

This is why tour players quite often ask for a rules official even under circumstances they are very familiar with (like cart path or sprinkler head relief). Because once an official rules on it, they are off the hook if the ruling is wrong.

One of the unique aspects of The Masters is that there are no "on course" officials like there are in every other PGA tournament. There is no one to ask while your are in play.

On the other hand, what would have happened if no TV viewers were involved and no officials reviewed the situation or even considered there may have been a violation - and then Tiger makes the comment that he purposely dropped further back after he signs his card? In this case it seems more clear that he should be DQ'd for breaking a rule and signing an incorrect card. So really, Tiger benefited from the TV rule in a way that it wasn't meant to protect players. Therefore, the call for him to withdraw is not that out of line either.

TW dropped the ball in spot where he thought it was appropriate. He played his round and signed his card. I don't think he would have ever mentioned at a press conference that he had dropped it further back if he thought it would be a penalty.

The new rule was put in place in part to keep players from being DQ'ed after the fact because they signed cards that they believed were accurate. From that stand point, the rule did exactly what it was supposed to.

[AzPaul]

Originally Posted by gulfstream69xr7

TW dropped the ball in spot where he thought it was appropriate. He played his round and signed his card. I don't think he would have ever mentioned at a press conference that he had dropped it further back if he thought it would be a penalty.

That's the key point. The idea that Tiger or any player would intentionally, inappropriately drop a ball a few extra feet away from a correct drop area, on a wide open shot, at the risk of a two stroke penalty, is completely absurd.

He made a mistake and he was appropriately penalized for it. The whole notion of disqualification or 'cheating' is kinda ridiculous. Goldfinger and Judge Smails cheated, not Tiger.

[lig]

WTF is wrong with these idiots calling this stuff in. I remember Craig Statdler being DQd for keeping is pants clean with a towel.

Get a life!

[T. Ferguson]

Originally Posted by gulfstream69xr7

TW dropped the ball in spot where he thought it was appropriate. He played his round and signed his card. I don't think he would have ever mentioned at a press conference that he had dropped it further back if he thought it would be a penalty.

The new rule was put in place in part to keep players from being DQ'ed after the fact because they signed cards that they believed were accurate. From that stand point, the rule did exactly what it was supposed to.

Originally Posted by AzPaul

That's the key point. The idea that Tiger or any player would intentionally, inappropriately drop a ball a few extra feet away from a correct drop area, on a wide open shot, at the risk of a two stroke penalty, is completely absurd.


He made a mistake and he was appropriately penalized for it. The whole notion of disqualification or 'cheating' is kinda ridiculous. Goldfinger and Judge Smails cheated, not Tiger.

I agree with AZPaul's assessment. I do not agree that Tiger would not have mentioned it afterward if he thought it would be a penalty. He probably would have mentioned it beforehand to officials as soon as it occurred to him he may have committed a violation. I seriously doubt Tiger would purposely sign for an incorrect lower score or deliberately try to hide the fact he broke a rule.

As far as the TV rule goes it was as I thought irrelevant, and probably would not have protected Tiger in this situation anyway. In the official explanation by the rules committee no mention was even made of this rule because Tiger could (and should) have known he violated the rules. The committee's official explanation was that since they had reviewed it before he signed his card and didn't have a problem with it until after, it would have been unfair to DQ him so they invoked the rule allowing reversal of DQ in extraordinary circumstances. Had they thought there was a problem they would have discussed it with him immediately, he would have told them he purposely dropped further back, they would have assessed the penalty and he would have signed for the correct score. No where was the TV rule mentioned in the official explanation.The TV rule is designed to protect players only from violations arising from facts they did not or could not have reasonably known that surface afterward from someone watching on TV calling it in. An example of this would be taking a drop from a wrong place because the ball didn't last cross the hazard where the player honestly thought it did.

BTW, I'm not sure this would have been any different had there been an official following the pairing. I mean, only Tiger and his caddie were in position to know exactly where he took his last shot from. Even his playing partner apparently wasn't aware that Tiger dropped from a wrong spot (unless he was confused about the rule too) or he would have said something. Obviously Tiger's caddie was not aware of the rule or he would have said something to Tiger on the spot before he dropped.

Tiger was actually inadvertently helped by the TV audience calling it in. Had they not there would have been no reason for officials to think a violation had occurred. They therefore would not have reviewed it. So when Tiger makes his comment after the round it would have raised a concern, they would have then reviewed it, found he broke the rule, and since he had already signed his card they would have DQ'd him.

No one says he cheated. You don't get DQ'd on the basis you cheated. You get DQ'd for breaking the rules period - purposely or not. It is pretty obvious that Tiger simply made a mistake by going back on the line and dropping under the option he chose, stroke and distance. The option of going back on the line is available under a different drop option, but not the one he chose.

Where the officials erred was in reviewing it during the round and making a determination without discussing it with the player right then and there. Bet they don't make that mistake again. Had they done that he would have been assessed the penalty during the round and this whole controversy would have been avoided.

[Boothroyd]

Playoff in the rain!

[77T]

Originally Posted by Lol-x

Adam Scott is 1 stroke from the lead going into the last round.
He's endorsed by Rolex and an Australian, so it's impossible for him not to win ........just don't tell Greg Norman

How about Scott's birdie on 18?
And the following one by Cabrerea?
And now a hole-by-hole playoff. WOW

[77T]

Originally Posted by T. Ferguson

I

Where the officials erred was in reviewing it during the round and making a determination without discussing it with the player right then and there. Bet they don't make that mistake again. Had they done that he would have been assessed the penalty during the round and this whole controversy would have been avoided.

Agree - and maybe next year we will have walking officials at the Masters.

But frankly, 25+ officials scattered across the pairings could just increase the chance of boners.

[Darlinboy]

I'm torn on supporting our Aussie mates vs. seeing the "old guy" win again.

Either way, exciting final day! The rain only adds to the drama.

[Boothroyd]

Angel! I thought he had it.

[77T]

And now to 10

[Boothroyd]

Uncanny how they played it so close to each other. 10 will determine the winner!

[77T]

Originally Posted by Boothroyd

Angel! I thought he had it.

That would've been huge

[77T]

Either way The Masters has a first. Neither a grandfather nor an Aussie have won before.

[Boothroyd]

I suspect it won't be close now....someone will break through, and someone will break down.

[Darlinboy]

in other news ...back to watches for a moment...

AP winning the on-camera exposure in playoffs, although Day showed off his Sub ( Edit: DSDD, not a Sub) well in the earlier post-round interview.

[Boothroyd]

Wow..how close can you come twice...love his pace of play, too.

[Boothroyd]

Wow..again! Congratulations, Mr. Scott!

[77T]

A new Wizard of Oz!

[Alanautumn]

Adam Scott wins it!!

[HRV]

Adam Scott what a great game

[crew]

Originally Posted by 77T

A new Wizard of Oz!

Nice!

Congratulations to Adam and score one for his country.
Cabrera showed a great deal of class in defeat.
Another great Masters.

[Boothroyd]

.

[wantonebad]

Originally Posted by Darlinboy

in other news ...back to watches for a moment...

AP winning the on-camera exposure in playoffs, although Day showed off his Sub well in the earlier post-round interview.

I thought Day was wearing a DSSD?