Collectibility?

[jvo300]

I always thought that collectibility was part of the Panerai special edition fun. These are low production watches after all. However, I was soured to this side of it when the new Cali dial watches were introduced. This, in part, lead me to sell off my 249. Initially, prices held and I thought perhaps I over reacted. Looking at the For Sale section today I am saddened to see how far 249 prices have fallen in the secondary market.

I personally will no longer take collectibility into account with my future Panerai purchases. Re-releasing special editions in anyway just stinks. Sorry for the rant, but it just hit home today.

[travisb]

I never buy based on collectibility.
And I'm sure you won't going foward.
When I find a watch that ticks all the right boxes I research pricing and go after it, regardless of how much or how little demand there is for it.
Stinks you got let down a bit, but at least you'll have a different approach next time around..

[jvo300]

Originally Posted by travisb

I never buy based on collectibility.
And I'm sure you won't going foward.
When I find a watch that ticks all the right boxes I research pricing and go after it, regardless of how much or how little demand there is for it.
Stinks you got let down a bit, but at least you'll have a different approach next time around..

Definitely different going forward! It's funny because it doesn't matter to me how many millions of Rolex have been produced, I just look for a fair price for what I want. I guess it's been hard for me to have the same attitude towards Panerai over the years since they specifically market their Special Editions, xxx of 500, etc. Perhaps I'm a little wiser now and/or the brand has lost a bit of luster for me.

[B. Doggy]

Panerai killed their own secondary market. Still great watches though..

[advocatia]

Originally Posted by B. Doggy

Panerai killed their own secondary market. Still great watches though..

I agree with you 100%.

And they continue to do so. Look at the Bronzo Sub. The purists are reluctant to admit it but Panerai pisses all over its own true fan base. The 318 was another example. Those consumers who are oblivious to the history and want a hot watch, couldn't care less about such things.

And you are right, still great watches though.

[unknown]

Originally Posted by advocatia

I agree with you 100%.

And they continue to do so. Look at the Bronzo Sub. The purists are reluctant to admit it but Panerai pisses all over its own true fan base. The 318 was another example. Those consumers who are oblivious to the history and want a hot watch, couldn't care less about such things.

And you are right, still great watches though.

For me the 318 is one of the few I will keep

That one will be unique.

I had a few LE but with all their re-editions I gave up panerai
I think I bought my last one 2 years ago.... and no plans to buy in the future

[advocatia]

Originally Posted by unknown

For me the 318 is one of the few I will keep

That one will be unique.

I had a few LE but with all their re-editions I gave up panerai
I think I bought my last one 2 years ago.... and no plans to buy in the future

____________________
The LE's are a joke. And it's sad that the 318 "may" become collectible because it was such a company clusterf*#^k.

[elazarus]

but I have to agree with all of you. Panerai has done a great job in killing off their secondary market.

How many years were there model numbers 1 through 217.......then all of a sudden you could not keep up with the new models coming to market as they were interchangeable....Gold Hands, 1950 case, Sandwich Dial, Dirty luminova, green luminova...well you get the point....it became a mix and match of which model should they produce today?

Personally, I collected the "A" series knowing that Tritium dials could not be produced again and they still are collectable as are the Pre-V Panerai and the Pre-Vendome models........After the "E" series it appears that they became more of a commodity (obviously) as production increased but not creativity.

Part of this also is that those who are new to Panerai are not into the history of the brand as in the past. Therefore, the company did not have to stick to the Historic look and continued to attract new buyers who wanted the Larger watches.

Just my 2 cents.

Elliot

[mborkow]

Originally Posted by travisb

I never buy based on collectibility.
And I'm sure you won't going foward.
When I find a watch that ticks all the right boxes I research pricing and go after it, regardless of how much or how little demand there is for it.
Stinks you got let down a bit, but at least you'll have a different approach next time around..

That's basically my approach...sure I'd love it if I lucked into buying a watch that will one day be valuable...but I it's not a factor in my buying decision (and I don't think it will happen).

[c.rod]

yeah, seems like with anything of recent make would not be smart to buy as a collectible.

[mborkow]

Originally Posted by c.rod

yeah, seems like with anything of recent make would not be smart to buy as a collectible.

Unless there's a production change on a popular model that results in a limited run of watches, it's hard to find something that's going to be rare...who knew that Rolex switching away from red fonts would lead to such valuable watches a couple decades later? It isn't like the red font adds any obvious value... And with Panerai, many of the watches are so similar that I'm not sure rarity of a subtle change will result in increased value or collectibility. Personally, I'm happy if I can get a watch at a price where if I enjoyed wearing it for a few years I'd be able to flip it and get back my money. Rolex, with their built in annual price hikes, pretty much guarantees that (though of course you still have the opportunity cost that you can't recoup); we'll see if Panerai can do the same thing. I bought my 372 BNIB at a pretty good discount. I'd like to think that in five years its resale on the secondary market will equal what I paid new for it...

[c.rod]

Originally Posted by mborkow

Unless there's a production change on a popular model that results in a limited run of watches, it's hard to find something that's going to be rare...who knew that Rolex switching away from red fonts would lead to such valuable watches a couple decades later? It isn't like the red font adds any obvious value... And with Panerai, many of the watches are so similar that I'm not sure rarity of a subtle change will result in increased value or collectibility. Personally, I'm happy if I can get a watch at a price where if I enjoyed wearing it for a few years I'd be able to flip it and get back my money. Rolex, with their built in annual price hikes, pretty much guarantees that (though of course you still have the opportunity cost that you can't recoup); we'll see if Panerai can do the same thing. I bought my 372 BNIB at a pretty good discount. I'd like to think that in five years its resale on the secondary market will equal what I paid new for it...

im with you 100%. now days i try to buy watches that can be resold relatively easy and either for what i paid for it, or a minimal loss.. which if your smart shopping on the 422/372 which im into, doesnt seem like a far fetched idea of getting close to your money back in a year or so? at least they dont tank in value.

also, lets be honest. even what the red letter subs are selling for. its not like your getting rich off it. you could make way more money with investments..lol.

[kilyung]

I spend a LOT of time assessing a watch's viability in my collection so I tend not to flip short-term. I also don't like to pick up watches the year they are released in order to avoid plummeting values. Sure, I miss out on some watches (bronzo) but I've seen few "collectible" pieces that I really wanted. When I do flip, it's been a few years so I generally don't get dinged.

[c.rod]

Originally Posted by kilyung

I spend a LOT of time assessing a watch's viability in my collection so I tend not to flip short-term. I also don't like to pick up watches the year they are released in order to avoid plummeting values. Sure, I miss out on some watches (bronzo) but I've seen few "collectible" pieces that I really wanted. When I do flip, it's been a few years so I generally don't get dinged.

i have the same exact mindset. the shortest "flip' ive had was 4yrs.... lol. it seemed like it was a lot shorter until i just added it up. that was on my omega smp 300 and i sold it for what i paid for it, and honestly it wasnt in the best shape, maybe TZ 85%-90% . not daily worn, but not a safe queen.

about new models, no matter what it is in life. i have never cared enough to pay the extra $$ to be the first guy on the block with the new watch. (black/blue gmt2, pam 372, pam 422/423 etc) . i generally wait until it settles down. if i would have bought the 372 when they were coming out it looks like i would have paid about $1500+ more than now.

[Piquet]

Originally Posted by B. Doggy

Panerai killed their own secondary market. Still great watches though..

I think panerai in the last couple of years has done a huge amount of damage to the secondary market, firstly with the rerelease of the 249 as the 448 and the the pronzo following the bronzo. I know lots of die hard fans are up in arms about it. I wonder how much of that is based on seeing pieces they had paid very little for which had risen in value, being worth less as they become less unique. They may claim how upset they are about panerai going back on their word, but i suspect it's a lot more about the loss of value of their pieces. If the models they already owned had continued to rise, i think we would have seen less complaints.

What do panerai do?There are only so many old designs available. They want to attract new buyers to the brand and reward their loyalty with access to the special editions. They receive none of the increase in value on the secondary market and if new fans end up spending money on the secondary market rather then new, then they end up with a loss of sales. I've also heard new fans expressing frustration that the initially cheap to buy classic pieces they like are now beyond their reach.

There were those who has been collecting for a long time who had been happily subsidising their collection by making sure they got more pieces then they needed and selling them on for profit. In effect they were making money from their relationship with the dealership and at the same time screwing over the new guy and panerai.

The whole business model panerai use is the reward loyalty with access to these in effect cheap pieces ( i know they're not actually cheap. but they used to be cheap compared to the price on the secondary market) The problem is, it becomes a self fulling prophecy with the same guys always getting the pieces.

Even now you see these early collectors selling their pieces are way over list, and then wanting to buy off others at list.

If people had bought the watch because they loved it, how has this changed with the new release? Has their tastes changed, or did they love the investment it had become?

The most obvious recent example of this was the 382 bronzo, the demand and hence secondary price went crazy, there was an element from owners of being in a somehow exclusive club by owning one. It triggered loads of clones, and those who couldn't get one got pissed at panerai. So what do they do, never make any more, allow the owners to make money that panerai didn't, encourage the clone market and discourage new fans? Maybe they should have pushed the envelope slightly more, but in effect they needed a way to release more, so they made it as similar as they could.

I do still see the adverts for second hand bronzos with ever increasing price tags that never seem to sell and wonder if they actually get market forces.

The reality is the panerai market is changing, it's no longer a small exclusive club where the founders continue to be rewarded, it opening up and appealing more the people who love the watches rather then those who want to invest. Think of the watches as art, buy what you like, not what you think is going to make money, even if it makes money it won't give you as much pleasure as you get as a result of all those times you looked at your watch and smiled.

[c.rod]

good post. i laugh when people talk about making money off of a watch. they are bad investements. if you want to make money with $10k go invest it...lol.

imo, if you can break even or take a tiny hit you are doing real well in todays world.

[Ray6Chan8]

Originally Posted by Piquet

buy what you like, not what you think is going to make money, even if it makes money it won't give you as much pleasure as you get as a result of all those times you looked at your watch and smiled.

This is the only way to enjoy watches.

If not, it is just money on your wrist and a pretty lousy place to choose.

[Travelller]

Originally Posted by jvo300

I always thought that collectibility was part of the Panerai special edition fun. These are low production watches after all. However, I was soured to this side of it when the new Cali dial watches were introduced. This, in part, lead me to sell off my 249...

I understand where you're coming from but the 249 is still the only 249; it has a plexi crystal and a classic 6498, no writing on the dial / dial area and so on. Each new Cali has something different about it that still allows the 249 to be unique.

As for investment, the problem with PAMs like the 249 and 127 is that they were commanding exorbitant sums on the grey market and many bought them at said prices, assured they would nonetheless increase dramatically over a short period of time. I'm not convinced that the release of the 448 caused the decline in market price of the 249 (or 372 <-> 127 for that matter).

The easier way to go about it is to buy a model "with potential" new at below retail and hold on to it for a few years. I'm fairly certain that the original owner of the 1999 16600 Sea Dweller I just bought was very pleased with the cash he got for it in today's market... and he most likely bought it below retail...

If I wanted to "invest" in a PAM I'd probably look for a MM dial (217 for example) because Panerai couldn't release another PAM with that logo as it is "copyrighted" by the Italian Navy...

[kilyung]

Originally Posted by Travelller

If I wanted to "invest" in a PAM I'd probably look for a MM dial (217 for example) because Panerai couldn't release another PAM with that logo as it is "copyrighted" by the Italian Navy...

I'd also pick the 203 as a modern collectible as OP only purchased 200 Angelus movements. There were 150 PAM203s produced and 6 PAM267s. That only leaves 44 Angelus movements as spares.

[Piquet]

Originally Posted by kilyung

I'd also pick the 203 as a modern collectible as OP only purchased 200 Angelus movements. There were 150 PAM203s produced and 6 PAM267s. That only leaves 44 Angelus movements as spares.

I play with saving up and buying a 203, but can't get over the fact i'd be paying $100k and that someone has made a huge mark up on it, that and for the same money i could have another 5 amazing other watches. Think a rerelease of the 127, a 399 with a p3000 movement, a red gold 379 (although i am desperately trying to resist buying a 379) a 300 with an in house movement, ok there i get stuck, but you get the idea

I suspect if the 341s had sold really well and had short up in price the remaining movements would have gone into an angelus 341 released to a chosen few as this kind of fits with previous form. Now i suspect eventually they'll end up in a new 203, but they'll charge $150k and make it out of platinum to justify the price, ho hum

[red1108nyc]

I tend to go after what I like and if the "flipping" vibe kicks in, off she goes. I think the market has been very slow the past 6 months and moving a panerai (for me), it has been hard. I do feel the general enthusiasm for the brand has been soften somewhat and the number of variations is causing a lot of duplicates/cross overs/hybrids.. straying away from the simplicity root.

[kilyung]

Originally Posted by red1108nyc

I think the market has been very slow the past 6 months and moving a panerai (for me), it has been hard. I do feel the general enthusiasm for the brand has been soften somewhat and the number of variations is causing a lot of duplicates/cross overs/hybrids.. straying away from the simplicity root.

This is why I stayed away from the brand for so long after minimizing my collection. I swore my 233 would be my last. However I couldn't pass up bargains. Given the state of Panerai, I truly do think the 372 is my last... unless I come across another bargain.

[mborkow]

Originally Posted by Piquet

I play with saving up and buying a 203, but can't get over the fact i'd be paying $100k and that someone has made a huge mark up on it

After spending $100k for a watch, it's hard to imagine you'd get more out of it...

[kilyung]

Prices on 203 have significantly dropped lately. You can pick one up in the $80s now.

[texex91]

Originally Posted by kilyung

I truly do think the 372 is my last... unless I come across another bargain.

I gave up on Panerai last year and it was tough to let 372 go. I still admire several of their new and older pieces. However, with what has been stated here already about secondary market, I am on the sidelines with Panerai.

Fun watch and it was what got me hooked larger pieces (>42mm).

[elazarus]

For me the most important part about collecting is the question "Will they produce a similar item".

Since I have collected all the "A" series with tritium dials, I can be certain that they cannot produce them again as all pieces now have some form of Luminova. The T SWISS T dials have been replaced by L SWISS L



Elliot

[Friedl41]

Nice watch and strap ... Where did you get it

[mfer]

I can tell you I have given up on chasing Panerai and begging them to let me buy one of their watches. There are plenty of models they have that I'd like to own, but they way their boutique are organized is bad IMHO. So many of their premium clients are just very smart flippers that never announce they are the ones flipping. How do you think the grey market sellers get all the cool watches? Panerai isn't sell them to the greys....they are all consignment. That is the way it goes. If they really wanted to do it right, it would be more like Patek, but that is a different price class.

Bottom line, I love Panerai watches, but don't fully understand how they are running their company. I'm not an expert on how a watch company should be run, but I can tell you I don't like what I see sometimes. What do I know, I'm just a Panerai die hard chump. And btw, I'm taking a huge hit on my 232 if I ever sell, but I likely won't. I saw a VERY tempting price on a 249 a month ago. Almost did it....*sigh*

[FLB03TT]

Panerai is growing, their customer base is growing and changing as a result. Panerai's corporate mandate is to sell more units this year than last. I believe they are succeeding at this. They don't owe their previous customers anything other than the delivery of a sound product and reasonable performance should a warranty issue arise in the two years following purchase. Secondarily, it would be a bonus to have a sufficient inventory of parts available for repairs of out of warranty watches for twenty to fifty years following retail sale.

The fact that S.E.s have been profitable investments in the past is an anomaly in the watch world and anyone complaining that some of the S.E. resale prices have softened are not being realistic about the changing nature of Panerai's business. In most cases S.E.s are selling above and in many cases far above their initial retail prices. Just because they are not all continuing to escalate relentlessly doesn't mean the sky is falling. The right S.E.s will continue to perform well when compared to almost any other watch brand on earth.

The best advice would be to buy watches you really like at price points you're comfortable with and call your stockbroker if you want a return on your investment.