Explorer 6610 at auction - legit?

[kirker]

Amidst all the hoopla over the rare Sub 5513 sold earlier today by a British auction house, I suspect many people overlooked the other interesting watches available at it (though none as interesting as a rare Sub), including the following 6610 -- which I bought:

http://andersonandgarland.com/BidCat...187&LotRef=748

You can also see it here, plus you can zoom in on the pic (which is admittedly subpar, and of course the auction house should have provided more than one):

http://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/au...2/lot-22610110

The problem is the fact that a few things about it seem, well, off:

1. The word "Explorer" is not present ANYWHERE on the dial. While this was the case with certain "pre-Explorer" movements such as the 5513, I've never seen a 6610 missing the word entirely.

2. The lettering can best be described as "fuzzy." The Rolex script isn't as crisp as I've seen elsewhere; moreover, "Oyster Perpetual" isn't centered in the same way it is on other 6610s. On most of them, the e in "Perpetual" lines up with the L in Rolex; on this watch the P in Perpetual and L in Rolex line up almost perfectly vertically.

3. Instead of simply the word "Swiss," as is present on all pre-Explorers and 6610s I've seen, or the later "Swiss - T < 25" seen on the 1016, "Swiss Made" is printed at the bottom.

4. Also missing is the thin circle around the second-hand hash marks, as is standard on both the 5513 and 6610.

On the plus side:

1. The watch didn't come from some dodgy eBay dealer, but a reputable auction house -- one that just sold a rare Sub for £65,000.

2. The serial number roughly matches the guide posted over on VRF.

3. The "Officially Certified Chronometer" script looks correct, as do the numerals. Ditto the bracelet and Mercedes hands.

4. If anything, the dial looks nearly identical to the one on the 6350 below, minus the "Explorer" script:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...olex/6350a.jpg

What do you guys think? Is there any chance it has some sort of prototype dial that never made it into production? Or could it very well be either a fake or a terrible re-dial? I haven't paid for it yet, and I'm allowed to cancel the sale if the watch is indeed a fake.

[Mark020]

The watch didn't come from some dodgy eBay dealer, but a reputable auction house -- one that just sold a rare Sub for £65,000.

You'd better read the thread on the sub more closely.

[kirker]

Originally Posted by Mark020

You'd better read the thread on the sub more closely.

I did read it thoroughly, and in the Sub's case, I would be exceptionally peeved if I committed to pay the equivalent of $135,000 (hammer price + buyer's premium, converted into USD) for a watch that had been substantially "cleaned" via Photoshop. However, I'm less concerned for a timepiece of far humbler value. In any event, my concern isn't so much with its condition as with whether or not it's legitimate.

[shane0mack]

Looks like a re-dial to me. Original 6610 dials should have a chapter ring with just "SWISS" at the bottom. Obviously, the word Explorer should be there as well.

[Mark020]

[R.W.T.]

What did you pay if you don't mind me asking?

The dial is a refin in my opinion. The hands are also not right. The seconds may be.

That being said...IS the bracelet signed...is it genuine Swiss Rolex?

If so that is likely the most valuable part.

The 6610 is an elusive beast. You should start NOW looking for a loose legit dial. It may take a decade. You may pay MORE than you paid for the watch. Get hands matching if possible. A good legit 6610 dial outside of a watch is probably harder to find than a 6538. Still they do exist from time to time. In the interim (you might wait a LONG time) you could have a quality refinish done.

Hands...also unique to the model and tough to find.

Here is my original dial 6610. Same year 1958. Dial and hands are original to the watch. Note the silver seconds hand. There are many 6610 in this serial range with silver seconds.

I relumed the hands as they had already been done and the match is now better. I did notice I need to clean up the hour at the point a bit next time I'm in. oops. :-)





T

[Mark020]

Amen. Of course it is refinished. The prototype suggestion: forget about it. Refinished dial but nothing said about the dial in the description (and of course they knew).

And: 'I haven't paid for it yet, and I'm allowed to cancel the sale if the watch is indeed a fake.' You have a problem I'm afraid. No fake so you are legally obliged to pay. Sorry!

[kirker]

Originally Posted by R.W.T.

What did you pay if you don't mind me asking?

£1,800 (plus buyer's premium). Even if it has a refin dial, I think it's an excellent deal for a 6610.

Originally Posted by R.W.T.

The dial is a refin in my opinion. The hands are also not right. The seconds may be.

I need to see it in person before passing judgment on the hands; they could just look "off" in the context of the dial. Btw I should note that while I've been collecting timepieces for a while, this is my first Rolex. I can spot a fake/refin Omega dial from 20 feet away but I'm somewhat of a newbie in this area, though I've been observing the general market from afar for a while now.

While I "get" why the dial could easily be refinished, what I *don't* get is why anyone would do so in such an odd manner. Writing "Swiss Made" instead of "Swiss" is one thing, but leaving out Explorer entirely? The only reason that wasn't an immediate red flag for me was because a) it makes so little sense and b) I know that the Daytona 6238 has no script on it except "Chronograph" or "Cosmograph." I just assumed it was some sort of branding thing, as with the Daytona (which was initially intended to be the official watch of LeMans).

Originally Posted by R.W.T.

That being said...IS the bracelet signed...is it genuine Swiss Rolex?

Damn well better be! I've already emailed the watch specialist at the auction house requesting both additional information as well as photographs, on top of any proof of provenance they have.

[kirker]

Originally Posted by Mark020

And: 'I haven't paid for it yet, and I'm allowed to cancel the sale if the watch is indeed a fake.' You have a problem I'm afraid. No fake so you are legally obliged to pay. Sorry!

This is where being a lawyer comes in handy. From the auction house's own Terms & Conditions: "Rescission. Notwithstanding any other terms of these conditions, if within seven days after the sale Anderson & Garland Ltd. have received from the buyer of any lot notice in writing that in his view the lot is a deliberate forgery and within fourteen days after such notification the buyer returns the same to Anderson & Garland Ltd. in the same condition as at the time of sale and by producing evidence, the burden of proof to be upon the buyer, satisfies Anderson & Garland Ltd. that considered in the light of the entry in the catalogue the lot is a deliberate forgery, then the sale of the lot will be rescinded and the purchase price of the same refunded."

The term "deliberate forgery" is left ambiguous btw; since they do not clearly define it, the term is open to interpretation. As such, if the dial alone is a "deliberate forgery," that's grounds enough for rescission right there (particularly since dials for vintage Rolexes can literally be the most valuable element of a watch).

[R.W.T.]

A '58 bracelet would be worth some decent money probably just under what you paid for the watch.

Not a bad price for the watch as is. I agree.

The difficulty is the dial...finding one.

If you can find a good one....and get good hands...you hit out of the park.

The dial even if everything else was perfect...SWISS MADE is pre 52. That watch was not introduced until 55-56 and no original 1030 dial that I know of has SWISS MADE because the movement didn't exist...

The minute hand is too short and they don't appear to be gilt hands.

[Too Old]

If I'm not mistaken, unless you are picking it up in person and wearing it through customs,
you cannot legally import it into the States and it may well be prevented from entering the country.