Original from Rolex or aftermarket?

[Chris1974]

How can one tell if a watch bought used came from Rolex with a diamond bezel and dial? I bought this beautiful ladies 6517 from a seized asset auction. I learned a lot about the bracelet which I thought to be fake but it's a JB Champion. I learned that here. http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=400510

Now I want to find out if the diamonds are aftermarket or Rolex. Is there a way to tell? My gut tells me they are aftermarket. The watch came with an appraisal stating the diamonds are Clarity SI-1 to I-1 and Color G-H average. Total diamond ct. weight in the bezel is 0.40.

[Haywood_Milton]

Dial and bezel are both made by third parties, NOT by Rolex.

Haywood Milton

[Chris1974]

Yeah I figured it was aftermarket but I knew that going in. Never the less it's a nice watch and the price was right. I may give it to my mother for her 70th birthday coming up soon. Either that or I'll put it away and give it to my wife for her birthday so she can up her Rolex collection to 2.

[MonBK]

Have you checked the guts?

[Chris1974]

Originally Posted by MonBK

Have you checked the guts?

Yes sir. The watch came with an appraisal as well listing all the numbers and details.

[Mick P]

Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Dial and bezel are both made by third parties, NOT by Rolex.

Haywood Milton

Haywood

How did you know that ?

My wife is dropping mega large hints that she wants a jewelled Ladies Datejust and I would rather buy used but the after market thing is a bit worrying.

Regards

Mick

[MonBK]

Because the 6517 is a vintage watch and dial & bezel shown are not.

[Mick P]

MonBk

Ok fair enough, is there a website or something similar that can be used as a reference for checking purposes ?

Regards

Mick

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by Mick P

MonBk

Ok fair enough, is there a website or something similar that can be used as a reference for checking purposes ?

Regards

Mick

I believe it's called TRF.

[Haywood_Milton]

Originally Posted by Mick P

Haywood

How did you know that ?

My wife is dropping mega large hints that she wants a jewelled Ladies Datejust and I would rather buy used but the after market thing is a bit worrying.

Regards

Mick

For me, it's perhaps a little more scientific than some here would suggest. The model reference numbers are largely encoded to denote specific model permutations, and a 6517(3) is not a diamond bezel, plastic glass lady-date. In all my career I have never seen a genuine, Rolex diamond bezel fitted retrospectively to a bicolour model ( and only very rarely to a gold one ); this one does not break the pattern.

That style of dial was not made until the mid-1990s and in fact from the picture it is very clearly NOT an original Rolex dial, period. I lecture the UK trade on this sort of identification and see it all day long.

That all being said, if you love the look then no-one else's thoughts count for anything, so long as you are at least aware of what you have.

Haywood M

[Mick P]

Dear MonBK

No one can remember every Rolex and what diamonds etc are original to them.

Surely there must be an index somewhere out there ?

Regards

Mick

[Haywood_Milton]

Originally Posted by MonBK

Because the 6517 is a vintage watch and dial & bezel shown are not.

This explanation may lead the optimist to believe that he has an old Rolex with a genuine, modern dial and bezel fitted, which is not the case.

Haywood M

[Haywood_Milton]

Originally Posted by Mick P

Dear MonBK

No one can remember every Rolex and what diamonds etc are original to them.

Surely there must be an index somewhere out there ?

Regards

Mick

I think it's out of print now, but Charlie Jarman's "Rolex Reference Guide" was quite handy in this regard, if you can find a copy. I contributed to what became the 4th edition, which I believe was the last.

There is great power in numbers, if used sensibly.

Haywood M

[Mick P]

Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

For me, it's perhaps a little more scientific than some here would suggest. The model reference numbers are largely encoded to denote specific model permutations, and a 6517(3) is not a diamond bezel, plastic glass lady-date. In all my career I have never seen a genuine, Rolex diamond bezel fitted retrospectively to a bicolour model ( and only very rarely to a gold one ); this one does not break the pattern.

That style of dial was not made until the mid-1990s and in fact from the picture it is very clearly NOT an original Rolex dial, period. I lecture the UK trade on this sort of identification and see it all day long.

That all being said, if you love the look then no-one else's thoughts count for anything, so long as you are at least aware of what you have.

Haywood M

Haywood

Thank you, that sort of throws some light on it.

I did a google on a 6517 and as you say, no diamonds appeared.

Many thanks

Mick

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

This explanation may lead the optimist to believe that he has an old Rolex with a genuine, modern dial and bezel fitted, which is not the case.

Haywood M

An optimist will believe anything he reads.

[linesiders]

Originally Posted by MonBK

An optimist will believe anything he reads.

And there is a masochist that lures people in with a green button to click

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by linesiders

And there is a masochist that lures people in with a green button to click

If you're a real p%*&k you will be approved when you click it and if nothing happens you know you're not qualified.

[linesiders]

[Chris1974]

I honestly didn't think the dial and bezel were installed by Rolex during the time of manufacture. But it could have been installed later in it's life by an AD using genuine Rolex parts. However I doubt that is the case either.

I know lots of dials are custom done but done to original Rolex dials. I have an aftermarket serti dial in one of my subs. The dial itself is original Rolex but the refinishing was done aftermarket. I suspect the dial in this ladies is the same, genuine Rolex dial refinished to what you see now.

Bezel is likely totally aftermarket, but very good quality. I'm trying to find one like it to fit on my wife's 69173.

[crowncollection]

Originally Posted by Mick P

Haywood



Thank you, that sort of throws some light on it.



I did a google on a 6517 and as you say, no diamonds appeared.



Many thanks



Mick

As Haywood States no two tone models were fitted with diamond bezels until very recently. The reference numbers are different in all models fitted with diamond bezels new and old. The dual you can see by age appropriate settings etc.

[Watchcollectables]

Originally Posted by Chris1974

I honestly didn't think the dial and bezel were installed by Rolex during the time of manufacture. But it could have been installed later in it's life by an AD using genuine Rolex parts. However I doubt that is the case either.

I know lots of dials are custom done but done to original Rolex dials. I have an aftermarket serti dial in one of my subs. The dial itself is original Rolex but the refinishing was done aftermarket. I suspect the dial in this ladies is the same, genuine Rolex dial refinished to what you see now.

Bezel is likely totally aftermarket, but very good quality. I'm trying to find one like it to fit on my wife's 69173.

The dial is easily aftermarket, you can tell by the bad settings and font. The bezel is also aftermarket , not likely or possibly but definately.



As an addition there is a Plethora of these watches around, basically old battered 4 numeral plastic glass model beefed up with nasty aftermarket parts to make them look more appealing to the unsuspecting buyer. The dials do not fit correctly as do the bezels. They will not test waterproof generally as the bezels do not fit correctly around an Acrylic glass and more often than not the movements leave a lot to be desired. There are also a lot of these watches migrated into aftermarket stamped cases with ` clone ` serials . Its an area to avoid at all cost in my opinion for what its worth.

[Chris1974]

Originally Posted by Watchcollectables

The dial is easily aftermarket, you can tell by the bad settings and font. The bezel is also aftermarket , not likely or possibly but definately.



As an addition there is a Plethora of these watches around, basically old battered 4 numeral plastic glass model beefed up with nasty aftermarket parts to make them look more appealing to the unsuspecting buyer. The dials do not fit correctly as do the bezels. They will not test waterproof generally as the bezels do not fit correctly around an Acrylic glass and more often than not the movements leave a lot to be desired. There are also a lot of these watches migrated into aftermarket stamped cases with ` clone ` serials . Its an area to avoid at all cost in my opinion for what its worth.

Thanks for all the inspiring good news.

Geez....like the grim reaper. LOL.

Battered, movement leaves a lot to be desired, will not test waterproof? So is your opinion to take every Rolex of a certain age or that is not 100% original from factory and remove them from circulation?

Sorry I disagree with you. While the aftermarket diamonds certainly won't appeal to everyone there is obviously a market for them or people wouldn't do it. This particular watch is nearly 50 years old. That picture does not do it justice, in person it looks stunning.

[Watchcollectables]

There is definately a market Chris , but Im not sure which market is biggest , the sales market for them or the fix and repair market for them ;-)

I see them every week , Its a way of making a probably almost unsaleable watch into something that it isnt.

Take the MOP dial for example, they are not in my opinion genuine MOP, just a material coloured disc that is applied as a circle to a brass backplate , and even then they are never centered correctly. you can see in your picture how the brass backplate is grinning through around the top right hand side of the dial. Rarely do these dials grip the side of the movement tabs correctly so they spin around easily when trying to fit them into a case and sometimes more importantly the thickness of the dial although allows more clearance for the diamond markers means the hands will have to be bent to allow freedom of movement to avoid contact with the underside of the glass ... All in all a Pigs Ear in my book. I steer clear when ever I can :-)