Fixed lugs

[J!m]

This might meet with resistance here, but I would lose sleep at night knowing an original military case was destroyed.

Please consider an aftermrket case for your purposes and keep the original case in the safe. Have your cake, eat it too, and preserve the original and extremely rare case for future generations. You don't plan to ever sell it, but 150 years from now, someone else may be looking to add it to a meuseum and have a modified case...

Just food for thought!

[lukeeesteve]

How is this reversible?

I personally have not handled a 5517, but based on the pics and imperfections on the lug and construction of other military watches I have seen....

Rolex probably drilled a larger hole to accommodate a larger lug bar., possibly with or without a countersink. They then pressed the bar in place and riveted or spot welded the bar in place and polished the imperfections away. If you find a half competent machinist who works with small parts, they will be able to machine out the weld/rivet head and push the existing bar out. Reinstalling the bar might require access micro welder if any excess metal was removed.

If the midcase / lug bar combo was a monobloc, then I would agree that his options are beyond me.

[J!m]

Originally Posted by lukeeesteve

How is this reversible?

I personally have not handled a 5517, but based on the pics and imperfections on the lug and construction of other military watches I have seen....

Rolex probably drilled a larger hole to accommodate a larger lug bar., possibly with or without a countersink. They then pressed the bar in place and riveted or spot welded the bar in place and polished the imperfections away. If you find a half competent machinist who works with small parts, they will be able to machine out the weld/rivet head and push the existing bar out. Reinstalling the bar might require access micro welder if any excess metal was removed.

If the midcase / lug bar combo was a monobloc, then I would agree that his options are beyond me.

The bar was pressed in/through the lugs and silver brazed I believe.

The "screwdriver method" would destroy the lugs, as well as (possibly) the mid case if you were prying against that. 316 (and 904 for that matter) is really not that hard, and not tolerant to being pried on with tool steel...

[andromeda160]

Originally Posted by lukeeesteve

How is this reversible?

I personally have not handled a 5517, but based on the pics and imperfections on the lug and construction of other military watches I have seen....

Rolex probably drilled a larger hole to accommodate a larger lug bar., possibly with or without a countersink. They then pressed the bar in place and riveted or spot welded the bar in place and polished the imperfections away. If you find a half competent machinist who works with small parts, they will be able to machine out the weld/rivet head and push the existing bar out. Reinstalling the bar might require access micro welder if any excess metal was removed.

If the midcase / lug bar combo was a monobloc, then I would agree that his options are beyond me.

no you're right on track with how they did it pretty much,drilled lugs and pressed in bar, which still begs the question how this is reversible.

sure you could put fixed bars back on, but it will be evident that it was pulled out and redone. people are apprehensive about buying laser welded cases, there's no way a serious watch collector could overlook the fact that someone ripped out the lug bars previously, and even if reinstalled perfectly, it would still suffer a huge loss because it's not original rolex at that point.

[marcello pisani]

fixed bars were just pressed in the " holes " and not welded or riveted at all !!
and keep also present that every job you do to a poor case .. leaves very evident signs that just f... k the value .

[andromeda160]

Originally Posted by J!m

This might meet with resistance here, but I would lose sleep at night knowing an original military case was destroyed.

Please consider an aftermrket case for your purposes and keep the original case in the safe. Have your cake, eat it too, and preserve the original and extremely rare case for future generations. You don't plan to ever sell it, but 150 years from now, someone else may be looking to add it to a meuseum and have a modified case...

Just food for thought!

best advice here so far, take the bezel Caseback and movement/dial out and throw it in a cheaper 5513 case of the same year. even if you bought a complete 5513 to do the swap with it'd still be cheaper than the loss of removing fixed bars.

[marcello pisani]

and if we see a watch live .. you can bet that we are able to see if case or lugs have been welded !
poor watches .. survived to wars just to be dismantled !!

[J!m]

I still think that case should be preserved and either a standard 5513 (or Tudor 9411- same case) would be used for "daily wear" if an aftermarket one is not possible.

I have seen some bare '13 cases available on the 'bay as well if you are against an unmarked aftermarket one.

[marcello pisani]

[marcello pisani]

[J!m]

I just had a scary thought- what if this has a "normal dial" and not the large "T" dial...

That could indicate a "rare as rocking horse poop" early 5513/5517 dual refrence sub...

Mangle that case and you better move to an island that has not yet been discovered because I think some members here might actually seek you out and cause you phiysical harm! (as well as any watchmaker willing to modify such a rare case)

Photos please!

[nocrown]

if/when the millsub is ruined, the best takeaway is that by an infinitesimally small degree the true unmolested surviving examples shall b worth that bit more...

hopefully, it will end up in the right hands, more at, right wrist, and not be vandalized..

[J!m]

Originally Posted by nocrown

if/when the millsub is ruined, the best takeaway is that by an infinitesimally small degree the true unmolested surviving examples shall b worth that bit more...

hopefully, it will end up in the right hands, more at, right wrist, and not be vandalized..

I suposse that value proposition to all other surviving milsubs is an upside, but hopefully we have the chance to save this one!

[Vincent65]

Originally Posted by andromeda160

if you read my post I said he should have reported him instead, which is a much more civil way of handling things.

I already read it. If you read my post, you'll understand that I commented that the other post wasn't very 'civil' to use your term. One begat the other.

[nocrown]

Originally Posted by Vincent65

I already read it. If you read my post, you'll understand that I commented that the other post wasn't very 'civil' to use your term. One begat the other.

oh come on guys! it was in jest.... lighten up... and i still stand by the statement given the nature of "vintage" on this forum and the general attitudes of members......

[watchcrank]

OMG! Sacrilege to most but it's your $.

[waiting]

I'm no expert by any means, however, wouldn't this be along the lines of taking a Salvador Dali and making adjustments to it? The mil-subs are a part of history and were made that way. Why mess with a piece of history?

Have you considered getting a 5513/16610/116610 and modifying to look like a mil-sub? It would give you the look you're looking for and much cheaper. To me it seems you are looking for the look of the mil-sub more so than the mystique of the mil-sub.

[marcello pisani]

Originally Posted by waiting

I'm no expert by any means, however, wouldn't this be along the lines of taking a Salvador Dali and making adjustments to it? The mil-subs are a part of history and were made that way. Why mess with a piece of history?

Have you considered getting a 5513/16610/116610 and modifying to look like a mil-sub? It would give you the look you're looking for and much cheaper. To me it seems you are looking for the look of the mil-sub more so than the mystique of the mil-sub.

impossible to say better !!

[andromeda160]

Originally Posted by Vincent65

I already read it. If you read my post, you'll understand that I commented that the other post wasn't very 'civil' to use your term. One begat the other.

Obviously, you can't change what people say about you, you can change how you respond to others accusations though, I never defended Nocrown, his claim was uncalled for but not completely unsubstantiated. I know he wasn't the only one with the thought to pop into his mind, sometimes things are just better left unsaid.

from a financial standpoint it's pretty clear cut that this is a really stupid idea. and it really makes no sense as to why he needs a Milsub if he just wants to throw a bracelet on it. there's plenty of 5513's in the world, and if he cared about the history of the watch, he wouldn't be chopping the fixed bars off.
like the old saying goes, a fool and his money are soon parted. he opened himself up to that comment when he posted this question. it doesn't even pass the common sense test. how anyone would think physically cutting off any part of a Rolex is beyond me, much less as rare of a reference as a Milsub

[nocrown]

Originally Posted by andromeda160

Obviously, you can't change what people say about you, you can change how you respond to others accusations though, I never defended Nocrown, his claim was uncalled for but not completely unsubstantiated. I know he wasn't the only one with the thought to pop into his mind, sometimes things are just better left unsaid.

from a financial standpoint it's pretty clear cut that this is a really stupid idea. and it really makes no sense as to why he needs a Milsub if he just wants to throw a bracelet on it. there's plenty of 5513's in the world, and if he cared about the history of the watch, he wouldn't be chopping the fixed bars off.
like the old saying goes, a fool and his money are soon parted. he opened himself up to that comment when he posted this question. it doesn't even pass the common sense test. how anyone would think physically cutting off any part of a Rolex is beyond me, much less as rare of a reference as a Milsub

well i'm glad u used the "s" and "f" words, so now we're both guilty, in varying degrees

i wont report u, nor anyone else btw

[waiting]

Originally Posted by nocrown

well i'm glad u used the "s" and "f" words, so now we're both guilty, in varying degrees

i wont report u, nor anyone else btw

Personally I don't think you were being insulting.

[jdmi32]

Guess I better keep the idea of putting diamond markers on a 6200 to myself.

[lukeeesteve]

Originally Posted by jdmi32

Guess I better keep the idea of putting diamond markers on a 6200 to myself.

[nocrown]

Originally Posted by jdmi32

Guess I better keep the idea of putting diamond markers on a 6200 to myself.

maybe start a new topic and

finally a sense o' humor!

[andromeda160]

Originally Posted by jdmi32

Guess I better keep the idea of putting diamond markers on a 6200 to myself.

just make sure to destroy the existing dial that you have if you do, I hear that radium is really dangerous

[J!m]

So I'm still waiting to see a picture of the potential victim here. Is it a 5517, or an even more rare 5513/5517 dual reference???

Engraved case back outside or just inside?

We gotta know!

[Paul]

Rarity is such a subjective thing and truth be told, there are quite a few MilSubs out there.

The OP has been fully informed as to how a conversion might impact on the value of a MilSub.
End of the day, it's his money and his prerogative - so I say go for it !

If you can't find a willing watchmaker, just call this guy .....

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by J!m

So I'm still waiting to see a picture of the potential victim here. Is it a 5517, or an even more rare 5513/5517 dual reference???

Engraved case back outside or just inside?

We gotta know!

5517 ( circa 130 made ) is more rare than a 5513/7 ( circa 170 made )

Whilst obviously it is imho slightly sacrilegious to remove the bars on a Virgin watch , it is at the end of the day it's your choice .... But

1. There are plenty out there that have had bars removed already , just buy one of those

2. You can just fold a bracelet over the bars if you use for example a folded link bracelet with 28o end links ( if you do this put some tape on the case to protect against wear , I have a customer who have done this for the same reason that he likes steel not nylon

Bars are countersunk and riveted so yes you will leave a mess if you just lever them out . the neatest way i have seen them removed has been where people have cut them out flush with the lug and then had a watchmaker drill in the centre of the remaining piece of bar a new hole for a spring bar,

About 50% of the watches I see have tool marks all over the bars and case and join to the case where original owners have tried pulling them out in the garden shed and some of the conversation about how people have tried it and failed would bring tears to your eyes , (and don't get me started on the guy who drilled holes in his case back so he could open it using a screwdriver and hammer) , so signs of damage alone don't mean much (i actually have one watch of my own that when i bought it had a piece of micro screwdriver head wedged into the gap between bar and case where the owner was ADAMANT the bar was a spring bar and could be removed and snapped it off trying, we had to weld onto it to pull it out) , but if combined with bracelet wear buyers will find it off putting , but not a deal breaker.


If you decide to do it, there will be a cost for your own enjoyment and you'll in effect be throwing away a few k of value , but that's no different to anyone who walks in and buy a brand new jlc , iwc or even Patek...and if a few K is no big deal to you then really its your choice.

[J!m]

Originally Posted by jedly1

5517 ( circa 130 made ) is more rare than a 5513/7 ( circa 170 made )

Interesting, thank you.

I never saw any solid number before but my understanding was ~500 '17s and ~200 13/17s (which correlates to your second figure pretty well).

To quote the Vice-Grip commercial: "Hmmh"

Bottom line is I'll probably never have one and it is looking like there will be one less before the dust settles here.

To OP, How about this: I'll grab a mid 70's 5513, put on Omega Seamaster 300 hands (I'll even strip the white paint off the seconds hand), find a repop dial wth a big T on it and a bezel insert from eBay... Can we trade?How about if I include the original dial too?

[jedly1]

Originally Posted by J!m

Interesting, thank you.

I never saw any solid number before but my understanding was ~500 '17s and ~200 13/17s (which correlates to your second figure pretty well).

To quote the Vice-Grip commercial: "Hmmh"

Bottom line is I'll probably never have one and it is looking like there will be one less before the dust settles here.

To OP, How about this: I'll grab a mid 70's 5513, put on Omega Seamaster 300 hands (I'll even strip the white paint off the seconds hand), find a repop dial wth a big T on it and a bezel insert from eBay... Can we trade?How about if I include the original dial too?

nah ....sorry not sure where you read that but its way off base...

5513 milsub ...circa 720-750
5513/7 double reference milsub (5515:) )- circa 170
5517 circa 130

total circa 1020-50.

i used to say 150;150 equal split but after more research and some recent info i got out of rolex i realised theres a few more sporadic double references mixed into the middle of what we previously thought were all 5517 batches so have revised it a bit.