Face to Face - Safe transactions.

[ChristophW]

Hello,

First time poster. I must say this forum is pretty amazing. I've never seen a message board so helpful and self-organizing as this one. I'm impressed with the resulting thriving micro-economy of traders created purely based on online reputation.

I'm considering purchasing from one of the many people here who have proven themselves trustworthy. If you're going to wire money to someone online, the only tool you have at your disposal is trust.

Now, if you're going to do Face-Face transactions, which I'm also considering, you have many more tools for safe transactions at your disposal - this also means that you can do transactions between people with less established reputation in person. Could people please elaborate on exactly what to do to optimize physical and economic security when doing deals that are in person, and high value - specifically Rolex. Here are the key questions I have:


- Where should we meet in person?
- How can the buyer know with absolute certainty that the Rolex is genuine, has no replaced (non-original) parts?
- How can the buyer know, and seller prove that the item is under a valid factory warranty, not stolen?
- How can money exchange hands securely at the same time that the watch is exchanged while knowing that the physical item is authentic?

I have not been able to imagine a scenario that guarantees all of those key points. For example, to guarantee authenticity, I imagine you could pay an appraiser, or service center to verify the authenticity/originality/legitimacy/warranty status of a watch, but then the money must exchange hands somewhere else (they likely wouldn't want you doing so inside the service center). In the time that you leave the service center and arrive at the second secure place of exchange, someone could switch the watch out with a fake.

Furthermore, you don't want to be walking around with that much cash, so I would imagine that doing the exchange inside a bank is likely the best option (where the both of you can be present and have the bank teller directly transfer money between you). However, how could one arrange that the appraisal/verification also occurs inside of this bank? Can one enlist paid services of an appraiser to be present at the bank?

Another option for "sealing" the authenticity of the watch might be a tamper-proof physical sticker-seal. At the service center, I could put my signature on the sticker (which generates a unique finger-print), take a photograph of it, then meet the seller at the bank. When I see the device, I will see my unique signature/sticker that matches the photograph on the watch at the time that money exchanges hands.

Thanks a ton!


Christoph

[Old Expat Beast]

With all these worries, you really should just buy from an authorised dealer.

[s14roller]

Buy the seller. It's really that easy. Otherwise, yes, like Adam says, buy from an AD.

Although after reading your last paragraph again...

[zama]

If the seller is trusted and well respected and has references, then I would do what I have done before which is merely meet at a bank and do the transaction, you can have the cash checked at the time, and all leave happy.

If you are super super super cautious then AD is your only option I expect.

[Tri-Tip]

I was nervous the first time I dealt with a Trusted Seller that I found on this forum. I had been a member and poster for nearly 4 years, but was still nervous about wiring nearly $7,000 to someone I did not know.

I figured that this entire forum could not possibly be a scam to rip me off, and I went ahead with the transaction, and it was very smooth. I wired the money at lunch time, and met the trusted seller that evening at a Starbucks where he presented me the watch, sized it for me (twice), and gave me a receipt and an appraisal.

I would not hesitate to do it again.

[Danny83]

I think your too paranoid

[Runnin' Rebel]

Ok, it's his first post on this forum. It's certainly normal for this skepticism, as most of us had when buying off the internet and spending this amount of money.

Chris, go to AD or do some more home work. Your comfort is important.

[ChristophW]

Thanks for replying everyone. I see a couple of types of responses so far.

1. "You're too paranoid": There are huge ranges of watch values. For everyone individual, there is some dollar amount for which taking rigorous precautions is absolutely warranted. For some, that number could be a mere $1,000, for others it would only make sense for watches over $100,000. It would depend on the percentage of total net worth a high value item represents to that individual. I did not mention details about my current situation, but regardless, when it comes time for me to sell to someone else, the item I'm selling to them might very well represent a much higher percentage of their net worth than it does to me. It's useful for me to know how I can help them be assured that what they're buying is legitimate and not swapped out.


2. "Buy from someone trusted": Absolutely. I would actually do so on this amazing forum. But I posted this precisely because I wanted suggestions about what can be done to recover transaction risk in the event that I am dealing with someone who has not yet demonstrated trustworthiness. If there are certain things that can be done to increase the total number of potential buyers/sellers beyond merely the established trusted sellers, then the watch game gets much more interesting to me (and others I would imagine).

[ChristophW]

Originally Posted by s14roller

Buy the seller. It's really that easy. Otherwise, yes, like Adam says, buy from an AD.

Although after reading your last paragraph again...

Both "tamper proof stickers" and unique images are common techniques in detecting tampering for items worth much less than even the cheapest Rolex. I'm genuinely curious why it seems strange.

[plusonechoi]

I have done many face to face transactions, not specifically a watch, but i have bought and sold cars private sale. It will require you to do your due diligence and homework, check whatever you feel is necessary to check. You can't rely on the seller to do the work for you. Ask any and all questions that will help satisfy you and make you feel comfortable with the sale.

I usually meet in public areas where others are around. For a private sale watch, I would imagine meeting at a jewelry/watch store would be best to complete the transaction, so you can arrange to have it checked on the spot. If it is authentic, the seller should have no issue doing so. You can bring cashiers check to pay instead of carrying a wad of cash. Like others have mentioned you also do have to get a feel for the seller, if anything feels funny/shady to you then do not proceed. Ultimately, you will have to have a bit of trust as well. Remember with private sale, it does require cooperation from both parties, so be flexible and reasonable to an extent.

I bought my watch online private sale, I got the cell phone of the buyer, asked all my questions, asked for references and deliberated before I was comfortable with wiring a large amount of money. If all checks out, then buy and enjoy!

And if all of that does not work for you, then the BEST way for you is to purchase NEW with an AD. This will keep your mind at ease regarding authenticity.

Hope this helps! Goodluck!

[J!m]

Based on your posts, I will reinforce what others have said: use a AD only. Or, in the case of a pre-owned and/or vintage piece, face to face in a brick and mortar store.

You have to get outside yourself for a second... The seller you are potentially dealing with is taking the same risk. How does he know you won't use phony cash? A phony bank check? Pull a weapon and steal the watch?

There needs to be a level of trust, and that needs to extend in both directions.

[new2rolexforums]

1. "You're too paranoid": There are huge ranges of watch values. For everyone individual, there is some dollar amount for which taking rigorous precautions is absolutely warranted. For some, that number could be a mere $1,000, for others it would only make sense for watches over $100,000. It would depend on the percentage of total net worth a high value item represents to that individual.

That dollar amount you are referring to should not be placed at risk. There is no 100% guarantee when you buy outside of an AD. If you can't afford to lose it, don't risk it.

I have done several bank wired transactions without a problem. You need to "buy the seller" by checking his feedbacks and history. Having said that, there is always a feeling of slight uncertainty until the item is received and is described.

[beer]

i do face to face deals just outside the police station but i can imagine a bank is just as safe

also had airports suggested but would say in this case the security there could not care less whether you have a safe transaction and are only there to protect against one thing

[Snow-Dweller]

I understand where you're coming from.....but!

I bought a BNIB AP from a trusted seller here. His references were impeccable, I spoke to him on the phone, and wired (what is for me) a large amount of money. The watch arrived exactly as promised, and I considered it a perfect, hassle-free and heavily discounted way of buying a watch.

As far as I'm concerned, if the references on TRF are good, then so is the seller.

[Larry302]

I understand where your coming from. I joined here to learn, then I found " my watch" an Explorer II two years old in like new condition . He was a trusted seller with many references.

Told my wife " I'm going to the bank", what for she asks ," I'm buying Rolex off a guy in California!"
" so your just going to send thousands of dollars to a guy on the west coast?"

" no I'm putting it right into his account......."

Had it the next morning ! Glad I did it.

[The Joker]

Buy from an AD, or use a trusted seller here and wire the money.

I would of never done the latter after just joining the forum here like you. But after a year or 2 as an active member and seeing how things work I did so without any worry's.

Or do the last bit you mentioned, the sealing/signature thing, that seems easy.

[Ferdelious]

Do your research, it's as easy as that. You are bulletproof using an AD and can probably get a 10% discount or more depending on the model. The only risk I can see using a trusted seller is possible warranty issues but that is the price you pay to get their discount. Other than that, check references and past transactions on any other seller. I bought from another forum member here who was not a top trusted seller, but I felt comfortable with him after much communication.

[beshannon]

Visit and buy from an authorized dealer.

[chucelli]

IMO, a trusted seller here has more to fear doing a face-to-face with you than you do with him/her.

If you have any concerns at all with the trusted sellers here at TRF, you should buy at an AD.

[GB-man]

IMHO you have to be able to discern a fake in order to feel comfortable buying from an unknown source. I don't mean the ones that say folex on the dial, but rather distinguish the finer nuances in paperwork, box, tags, dial, hallmarks etc.

If this is not you then buy from an AD or a trusted seller which I consider a safe middle ground.

There is a great deal of risk buying from or selling to someone with no reputation, particularly in person, which is why I always reserve the right to select the buyer when I sell.

[the_Hunter]

So I had a lot of the same questions and fears on my first purchase. I ended up using a trusted seller that would take paypal. I then used my Amex to fund the transaction. This did end up costing me about 3% on the deal, but it gave me the piece of mind I needed to get over the hump.

At the end of the day don't do something you are not comfortable with.

[Chewbacca]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

With all these worries, you really should just buy from an authorised dealer.

this

or a local brick and mortar reseller where you can use a credit card (i don't see why walking around with cash is necessary as it doesn't afford a good enough deal or satisfy the concerns).


good luck!

[azguy]

hey, everyone is not built for it, I've showed up at peoples houses with upwards up $20K in cash to buy motorcycles, boats, jet skis and cars and have had people show up at my place to do the same.

I've done at least 6 buys and or sells of watches at local Starbucks simply doing the exchange over a latte.

If you are gonna want blood oaths, appraisals and presidential like protection, you're not up to transactions like these and should buy from an AD or simply use HQ Milton right in SF. Sure you'll pay more but you'll have no worries.

[chucelli]

Originally Posted by azguy

hey, everyone is not built for it, I've showed up at peoples houses with upwards up $20K in cash to buy motorcycles, boats, jet skis and cars and have had people show up at my place to do the same.

I've done at least 6 buys and or sells of watches at local Starbucks simply doing the exchange over a latte.

If you are gonna want blood oaths, appraisals and presidential like protection, you're not up to transactions like these and should buy from an AD or simply use HQ Milton right in SF. Sure you'll pay more but you'll have no worries.

It also depends on where you live. I wouldn't think of being so casual with these transactions in my neck of the woods. Even on smaller transactions, I prefer to meet in a mutually agreed upon public place.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by Tri-Tip

I was nervous the first time I dealt with a Trusted Seller that I found on this forum. I had been a member and poster for nearly 4 years, but was still nervous about wiring nearly $7,000 to someone I did not know.

I figured that this entire forum could not possibly be a scam to rip me off, and I went ahead with the transaction, and it was very smooth. I wired the money at lunch time, and met the trusted seller that evening at a Starbucks where he presented me the watch, sized it for me (twice), and gave me a receipt and an appraisal.

I would not hesitate to do it again.

X2 It is nerve wracking at first when you are dealing with someone for the first time. That is why a lot of people like to go back to the same Trusted Seller.

"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you."-Joseph Heller

[Kneecough]

So, for my first Rolex, after scouring these forums for months, I decided it was time to purchase. I liked the idea of being able to save through one of the trusted sellers on here, but was still very hesitant to wire so much money to someone I did not know.

Through more research, I learned that arguably the most mentioned trusted seller is in the same city as me. So, I contacted him and was able to work out a deal. He was willing to meet in person, so I drove to his office. I was rather nervous when I arrived as the only Rolex watches I was familiar with were those I tried on or looked at at the AD.

He did everything he could to make me comfortable with the sale, explained a lot about the watch to me, signs of a fake, and even took the time to ensure I was able to see the laser engraved crown before I had left (something I insisted on). Even then, my first stop after leaving was the Rolex Boutique for additional verification. 100% authentic and new.

All that being said, I would not hesitate to deal with this seller again, via wire transfer or in person. He was absolutely professional and a pleasure to deal with. I look forward to being able to see him again for my next acquisition. Like mentioned many times in this thread, buy the seller, and everything will go smoothly.

[daveathall]

Originally Posted by azguy

hey, everyone is not built for it, I've showed up at peoples houses with upwards up $20K in cash to buy motorcycles, boats, jet skis and cars and have had people show up at my place to do the same.

I've done at least 6 buys and or sells of watches at local Starbucks simply doing the exchange over a latte.

If you are gonna want blood oaths, appraisals and presidential like protection, you're not up to transactions like these and should buy from an AD or simply use HQ Milton right in SF. Sure you'll pay more but you'll have no worries.

I find myself agreeing with this, at some stage trust has to be given and received, the weight of recommendations from members of this forum is a good place to start, if one isn't going to trust the seals of approval from so many on here then the AD is the only place to go.

[bayerische]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

With all these worries, you really should just buy from an authorised dealer.

Yup. Simple answer to OP, unless you have experience you can't.

[Passionata]

you don t wanna know how did I bought my Rolexes or Omegas ,each deal has a story ,
my last purchase was an exception , OK it was a Patek from a nice AD.

[jw0n]

To the OP:

- Where should we meet in person?
- How can the buyer know with absolute certainty that the Rolex is genuine, has no replaced (non-original) parts?
- How can the buyer know, and seller prove that the item is under a valid factory warranty, not stolen?
- How can money exchange hands securely at the same time that the watch is exchanged while knowing that the physical item is authentic?

1) You can meet at your local RSC. This can be safe grounds for both buyer and seller.

2) At least in this part of the world, RSC provides authentication services: this at least tells you if the watch is still warrantied, and not stolen. If you want to know if all parts are authentic, I suppose this can be done although probably not within the hour. Btw, RSC verification services costs something like $100 here.

3) If all is good, just deliver and collect the cash at the RSC lobby :-)