The True Value of Box and Papers

[brockburst]

So I have been shopping around for a Transitional Matte Dial Submariner from 1982 - 1984 because I dig the look and find them to be the only real foray into vintage subs that I can afford currently.

I have been in the market for 3-4 months and have been set on finding an example with box and papers that is also relatively unfaded / no patina.

Couple questions:
Do box and papers really enhance value? I am assuming 20 years from now examples with box and papers should command a premium over similar examples without. Does anyone have historical value of how that premium trends?

Are Rolex Service Papers nearly as good as the original papers? Meaning an example with box and RSC vs box with factory papers, command similar values?

Finally, on patina, tons of people obviously like the look of patina and it is a natural occurance for any item aging over time. However, do examples that are unfaded have more investment value than examples with patina? Of course even patina is important etc, no need to go into that part of the process here.

Thank you kindly TRF.

[yannis]

I have seen 2k+ for recent examples (16710) more for older like 1680. I believe there is no guide, market defines and drives prices really.

[GGGMT]

This topic has been discussed many, many times in various threads. To some people, BP is important; to others, not so much. To Me, as a personal collector, they add crucial provenance, credibility, story, and soul to the piece. I've never bought a watch without box and papers and never will. To the average daily use wearer, or the high-volume seller, or an extremely high-end collector, where BP may not be even available, perhaps they are less important. So they are worth paying for. I find for most watches they add approximately 10% to the price.

[Zoran]

Originally Posted by brockburst

Couple questions:
Do box and papers really enhance value? I am assuming 20 years from now examples with box and papers should command a premium over similar examples without. Does anyone have historical value of how that premium trends?

Are Rolex Service Papers nearly as good as the original papers? Meaning an example with box and RSC vs box with factory papers, command similar values?

Finally, on patina, tons of people obviously like the look of patina and it is a natural occurance for any item aging over time. However, do examples that are unfaded have more investment value than examples with patina? Of course even patina is important etc, no need to go into that part of the process here.

Thank you kindly TRF.

Hi,

Box and papers add value to the collector. A full set will always command a premium over watch only.
Some models there will be $1000-$2000 difference, while some of the older models (gilt subs, red subs, Double Red Sea-Dwellers and GMT's & of course Daytona's) will have a significant higher value if it is a full set. The difference can be between $3000 and $5000 in those cases from what I have seen.

RSC papers don't command the same premium without the original papers.
If they accompany the set, it will be a nice bonus that will add some value.
Like having the original maintenance book filled out from an oldtimer... It adds value

Patina comes in all colors and shapes. Some prefer lighter patina, others darker.
This depends on the preference of the buyer, but one thing we all love is even patina. Hands age different than the lime plots in some cases. Remember they were not made at the same time by the same supplier in most cases. This is acceptable. Also here an even patina or same color as the dial will command the higher price.

I prefer a great case and dial over papers any day. Papers are a welcome bonus, but not a must for me.

Hope this helps you out!

[brockburst]

Thank you for your thoughtful answer that is perfect.

[kirksingleton]

I don't think they add much if any value unless it is a collectable or mint piece. If there are two "common" identical watches for sale, the one with b/p will sell first but not for a premium.
I keep all of my box/papers on my new watches. I once sold a box and now regrets it but it is just a plain jane tt date just so no big deal (still have the paperwork though). I just picked up a really nice condition GMT without box/papers unfortunately. Sure it would be great to have the complete set but I got a heck of a deal on it.

[Tools]

Originally Posted by brockburst

Thank you for your thoughtful answer that is perfect.

Yes, but nobody really answered your question..

You're not looking for a Red or a Newman, you just want a 16800 with the early matte dial. If the "papers" are original and authentic, expect to pay an additional couple of hundred bucks but do not pay extra for the "papers" if the watch is not in excellent condition.

The watch condition is paramount; do not pass on an excellent example without paperwork for a poor example just because it has them..

[Kingface66]

Originally Posted by Tools

Yes, but nobody really answered your question..

You're not looking for a Red or a Newman, you just want a 16800 with the early matte dial. If the "papers" are original and authentic, expect to pay an additional couple of hundred bucks but do not pay extra for the "papers" if the watch is not in excellent condition.

The watch condition is paramount; do not pass on an excellent example without paperwork for a poor example just because it has them..

This. Totally this.

[ADINVA]

How many of us here can accept a service case....assuming the price reflects a 15~20% discount.

I dont mind for a daily wearer. With the lower price and a great strong case, I am quite happy to have a service case. Anybody is absolutely against a service case?

[Hollister]

Boxes can be had off eBay, and papers can be faked. I'd buy on the condition of the watch over anything else.

[joli160]

Originally Posted by ADINVA

How many of us here can accept a service case....assuming the price reflects a 15~20% discount.

I dont mind for a daily wearer. With the lower price and a great strong case, I am quite happy to have a service case. Anybody is absolutely against a service case?

Yes, who doesn't, why buy one with a service case or even without B/P whilst there are many original full sets with good watches around ?

[yannis]

Originally Posted by Tools

Yes, but nobody really answered your question..

You're not looking for a Red or a Newman, you just want a 16800 with the early matte dial. If the "papers" are original and authentic, expect to pay an additional couple of hundred bucks but do not pay extra for the "papers" if the watch is not in excellent condition.

The watch condition is paramount; do not pass on an excellent example without paperwork for a poor example just because it has them..

Hi Larry! It is more than 200 (a lot more actually) that at least so my search for 16610 LV, 16710 and 1680 with box and papers indicated. I searched through chrono24 and other sites by the way.

[harry in montreal]

I think hollisters answer was spot on!

Too many blank papers floating around. I rather focus on a nice dial. Nice and even with some attractive lume