El Primero

[Flintstone]

I have an opportunity to pick up a Daytona El Primero (zenith movement; obviously) TT Black Dial, box, papers. I'm not going to use this thread to ask for appropriate price, but I do want to tap into the expertise of its members to share their thoughts on this individual piece as far as quality, rareness and where it fits in throughout the history of Daytona. Also, if any of you own the watch and would like to post pictures, that would be great. Thank you.

[TimeToWatch]

I just got one last week...all I've gotta say is go for it, you won't regret it. A couple days in here are my thoughts...

The watch keeps excellent time - definitely on par with the precision of my modern Rolexes. Build quality is typical Rolex, there shouldn't be any surprises there. Many complain of the bracelet lacking glidelock and having hollow links, but when you're going "vintage" (are we there yet with this one?) there are certain sacrifices to be made. I would say if you prefer the aesthetics of the 16520 to the 116520 and are okay with a slightly less comfortable bracelet it's a no-brainer.

In terms of rarity it really comes down to what dial you're getting. The Mark I (hanging cosmograph) and II (4-liner) are the most rare and command commensurate pricing. The other dials are not particularly rare, as this watch was very popular at the time and had high production runs. Of the two colors, the black dial is definitely rarer.

Best of luck in your decision, you know where I stand.

[nick c]

Mine is 16523 zenith A series slate dial TT sorry not a black dial

[Tools]

The Zenith powered Daytona has a place in the evolution of the Daytona already. It was the last Daytona with a non-in house movement.

The Daytona is a cult watch and there are fans of the Zenith who swear by it, but it is not a technological marvel like it's newer brother.

Future values, - who is to say ?. The Stainless Steel is currently more valuable than the TT models for collectors and will likely stay that way for a while..

[sgmgolf]

Mine says Hi......and I prefer the Zenith model 16520 with white dial and black subs.....it was just easier for me to read. I think they will continue to appreciate a little bit, how much, anyones guess is as good as mine....the market will dictate that. The floating Cosmos are crazy money right now and very rare indeed.

This one is the last of them.....A-series with SEL circa 1999.

[watchwatcher]

Originally Posted by Tools

The Zenith powered Daytona has a place in the evolution of the Daytona already. It was the last Daytona with a non-in house movement.

The Daytona is a cult watch and there are fans of the Zenith who swear by it, but it is not a technological marvel like it's newer brother.

Future values, - who is to say ?. The Stainless Steel is currently more valuable than the TT models for collectors and will likely stay that way for a while..

Pretty much sums it up. Congrats on your upcoming purchase!

[landroverking]

Congrats. I'm a big Zenith Daytona fan.
Mostly I just prefer the dial layout. I had mine since 1998. Serviced twice.
Once by an AD in Austin and once at RSC Dallas.

[detectiveddubs]

That's awesome! I love my TT champagne dial Zenith. It's the first Rolex I got and my daily wear. Can't leave the house without it. Just looks better and better everyday.

[SL BRABUS]

A true Daytona fan will have a Zenith movement in their collection......

[ratty]

Originally Posted by aschneid

Very nice, congratulations on your new watch

[ratty]

Originally Posted by sgmgolf

Again, very nice

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Flintstone

I have an opportunity to pick up a Daytona El Primero (zenith movement; obviously) TT Black Dial, box, papers. I'm not going to use this thread to ask for appropriate price, but I do want to tap into the expertise of its members to share their thoughts on this individual piece as far as quality, rareness and where it fits in throughout the history of Daytona. Also, if any of you own the watch and would like to post pictures, that would be great. Thank you.

Well first lets get things straight Rolex had never made a chronograph movement prior till early 2000 they used ones mainly from ETA Valjoux like the 72 series movement but they were manual wind only.But most buyers wanted a automatic so Rolex made a deal with Zenith to supply ebache Elprimo movements to Rolex.Now thats when Daytona fever really took off with much better sales over the manual wind range like the 6263, which were in those 1980s days were very poor sellers.And IMHO the Zenith powered ones in today world will always have a slight premium price over the in-house Daytona.Although made in smaller numbers they are most certainly not a true rare Rolex watch

IMHO the main reason for the in-house was basically when Zenith would not or could not supply enough base Elprimo ebauche movements to Rolex for the increased sales.Rolex had to design and make their own first ever chrono movement the cal 4130.Now Rolex modded the Elprimo movement by slowing it down from its normal 36000 BPH to 28800 BPH, by fitting the Rolex balance bridge escapement and Brequet overcoil and micro adjusting screws,some say the Elprimo movement was degraded,but this was done IMHO to keep service time to the normal 5 year range like the rest of the Rolex range.IMHO one of the main reasons that Rolex put there own escapement and changed to the normal 28800BPH from the Zeniths normal high beat 36000BPH was the service interval to keep all movements to the then 5 years .Now when Zenith made the Elprimo they developed a special oil to be used when serviced the Hi beat movement.Now many watchmakers did not use this oil and did not service them correctly.So like the Dubois Depraz module they got a bad name by some watchmakers.Not because they were bad simply because in the Zeniths case they did not use the correct oils and some did break down.And with the Dubois Depraz chrono modules like in the Tudor Heritage many did not have the skills to set and oil them up correctly thats one of the main reason they got a bad name as well.But when set up and serviced correctly the Elprimo and Dubois Depraz chrono modules can IMHO equal and better in many cases most chronograph movements made over the many decade and present day.

Now the Rolex in-house is excellent movement with a higher power reserve.But in accuracy term IMHO both equal,but as to reliability well the the Elprimo has proved it self well enough, its been around since 1969.Now the Rolex one just a few years in watch terms but has proven to be one of the finest chronograph movements made today.


Now the first truly automatic chronograph the cal 11 was invented in 1969 in conjunction with 4 watch companies Breitling,Heuer, and Hamilton, plus movement specialist Dubois Depraz.And it was launched March 3rd 1969 in Geneva under the joint brand name of Chronomatic,and Zenith made the first 36,000 BPH called the El Primero a bit later.And lets not forget Seiko with their 6139A column wheel movement which featured the first ever use of a vertical clutch system mechanism and that was a very fine reliable movement but back in those 1960s days mainly only heard of in Japan.

[ratty]

Thanks for this Peter.

I always enjoy reading and learning from your posts

[rmlovett1]

Originally Posted by padi56

Well first lets get things straight Rolex had never made a chronograph movement prior till early 2000 they used ones mainly from ETA Valjoux like the 72 series movement but they were manual wind only.But most buyers wanted a automatic so Rolex made a deal with Zenith to supply ebache Elprimo movements to Rolex.Now thats when Daytona fever really took off with much better sales over the manual wind range like the 6263, which were in those 1980s days were very poor sellers.And IMHO the Zenith powered ones in today world will always have a slight premium price over the in-house Daytona.Although made in smaller numbers they are most certainly not a true rare Rolex watch

IMHO the main reason for the in-house was basically when Zenith would not or could not supply enough base Elprimo ebauche movements to Rolex for the increased sales.Rolex had to design and make their own first ever chrono movement the cal 4130.Now Rolex modded the Elprimo movement by slowing it down from its normal 36000 BPH to 28800 BPH, by fitting the Rolex balance bridge escapement and Brequet overcoil and micro adjusting screws,some say the Elprimo movement was degraded,but this was done IMHO to keep service time to the normal 5 year range like the rest of the Rolex range.IMHO one of the main reasons that Rolex put there own escapement and changed to the normal 28800BPH from the Zeniths normal high beat 36000BPH was the service interval to keep all movements to the then 5 years .Now when Zenith made the Elprimo they developed a special oil to be used when serviced the Hi beat movement.Now many watchmakers did not use this oil and did not service them correctly.So like the Dubois Depraz module they got a bad name by some watchmakers.Not because they were bad simply because in the Zeniths case they did not use the correct oils and some did break down.And with the Dubois Depraz chrono modules like in the Tudor Heritage many did not have the skills to set and oil them up correctly thats one of the main reason they got a bad name as well.But when set up and serviced correctly the Elprimo and Dubois Depraz chrono modules can IMHO equal and better in many cases most chronograph movements made over the many decade and present day.

Now the Rolex in-house is excellent movement with a higher power reserve.But in accuracy term IMHO both equal,but as to reliability well the the Elprimo has proved it self well enough, its been around since 1969.Now the Rolex one just a few years in watch terms but has proven to be one of the finest chronograph movements made today.


Now the first truly automatic chronograph the cal 11 was invented in 1969 in conjunction with 4 watch companies Breitling,Heuer, and Hamilton, plus movement specialist Dubois Depraz.And it was launched March 3rd 1969 in Geneva under the joint brand name of Chronomatic,and Zenith made the first 36,000 BPH called the El Primero a bit later.And lets not forget Seiko with their 6139A column wheel movement which featured the first ever use of a vertical clutch system mechanism and that was a very fine reliable movement but back in those 1960s days mainly only heard of in Japan.

[ming the merciless]

Yes, thanks for that explanation.

[aperna]

Here are mine

[padi56]

Originally Posted by ratty

Thanks for this Peter.

I always enjoy reading and learning from your posts

Originally Posted by Richris1

Originally Posted by ming the merciless

Yes, thanks for that explanation.

Thanks guys.

[fskywalker]

Originally Posted by Flintstone

I have an opportunity to pick up a Daytona El Primero (zenith movement; obviously) TT Black Dial, box, papers. I'm not going to use this thread to ask for appropriate price, but I do want to tap into the expertise of its members to share their thoughts on this individual piece as far as quality, rareness and where it fits in throughout the history of Daytona. Also, if any of you own the watch and would like to post pictures, that would be great. Thank you.

If you can buy one of the latest batch, which believe is A series. Those have luminova dial and solid end link bracelet and will retain value better than the older ones.

[masyv6]

I think the Zenith Daytona is a great one and has a place in any Daytona *cough* addict *cough* lover's collection!