SS Rolex Sub vs SS Tudor Sub pole

[cornerstore]

If Rolex offered a SS Submariner date in house movement and Tudor offered the exact same watch with an ETA movement for a % less which would you purchase? Only difference apart from the movement is the dial logo. Think Rolex 1680 vs Tudor 79090 except with all modern upgrades. Question is all things being equal other than movement and dial logo would you purchase the Tudor over the Rolex.

[cornerstore]

Poll not pole:)

[Dan Pierce]

I already have, so yes.
dP

[JacksonStone]

I'm not sure I get the point of this question since, while similar in some ways, both brands have a distinct design and finishing ethos. Not only that, but Tudor is transitioning into a completely in-house brand, so the real differences between the brands will have to do with design and finishing, as well as intrinsic movement quality, but not whether the movement is in-house or ETA. You're constructing a hypothetical situation that would never happen. It's like asking, "If your girlfriend looked just like Bar Rafaelli, but wore knock-off brands instead of couture, whom would you rather date?" Are you just trying to figure out the value of the Rolex name, relative to Tudor?

[cornerstore]

Originally Posted by JacksonStone

I'm not sure I get the point of this question since, while similar in some ways, both brands have a distinct design and finishing ethos. Not only that, but Tudor is transitioning into a completely in-house brand, so the real differences between the brands will have to do with design and finishing, as well as intrinsic movement quality, but not whether the movement is in-house or ETA. You're constructing a hypothetical situation that would never happen. It's like asking, "If your girlfriend looked just like Bar Rafaelli, but wore knock-off brands instead of couture, whom would you rather date?" Are you just trying to figure out the value of the Rolex name, relative to Tudor?

It did happen once in the past Rolex 1680 vs Tudor 79090 and Rolex 5513 vs Tudor 94010 . I appreciate the differences between the brands today but my question was a hypothetical scenario based on past cobranding history, to say it would never happen again is also somewhat hypothetical. Yes it is a value based comparison vs brand cachet.

[cornerstore]

Originally Posted by Dan Pierce

I already have, so yes.
dP

Yes that one was a beauty.

[rajcuatrista]

Hi Patrick...
I like this quote
Be kind to Unkind People. They need it more.
This, I will keep in mind when dealing with nasty people I come across during the course of my day moving forward.

[vukotab]

I already did it few times...

Never cared much about sheer branding, if I love one product more than another - then it's done, I guess...

[japenney]

I want my Tudor to be different than the Rolex and not a clone....If it was an exact copy minus the name on the dial I would not buy the Tudor. I like Tudor because IT IS different.

[ejvette]

Not sure how I feel about this "Pole"

[HL65]

For me no simply because I never cared for the look of Tudor Subs. Don't like the hands and never have. It has nothing to do with Rolex vs Tudor just personal taste. Now I did own a Tudor chronograph a few years back and it was spectacular.

[JacksonStone]

Originally Posted by cornerstore

...to say it would never happen again is also somewhat hypothetical.

Speculative more than hypothetical, I think, but I take your point. A lot has changed in the industry - and in marketing practices in general - since the time of the four-digit Rolexes. While anything is possible, there would have to be additional, substantial changes either to the brands or the industry for Rolex to want to produce Tudor clones. Given the current market segments the brands inhabit, I don't see it happening.

In answer to your question, no, I wouldn't buy an ETA-based Tudor clone of a Rolex to get a lower price. One of the joys I get out of my SubC is the outstanding accuracy of the 3135, to say nothing of the smooth-as-silk winding action. It's an indication I didn't pay just to have a nice case for housing a run-of-the-mill movement. I'd have no interest in an ETA-based version with a different brand logo. Also, like Japenny, I too appreciate Tudors because they're Tudors, not would-be Rolexes.

[cornerstore]

Originally Posted by rajcuatrista

Hi Patrick...
I like this quote
Be kind to Unkind People. They need it more.
This, I will keep in mind when dealing with nasty people I come across during the course of my day moving forward.

Wish I could say I always practised it myself .

Originally Posted by vukotab

I already did it few times...:

Never cared much about sheer branding, if I love one product more than another - then it's done, I guess...

Branding and market cachet is a very complex thing, so many variables.

Originally Posted by japenney

I want my Tudor to be different than the Rolex and not a clone....If it was an exact copy minus the name on the dial I would not buy the Tudor. I like Tudor because IT IS different.

Seems Tudor is getting the message out, my AD is doing very well with his Tudors.

Originally Posted by ejvette

Not sure how I feel about this "Pole"

Originally Posted by HL65

For me no simply because I never cared for the look of Tudor Subs. Don't like the hands and never have. It has nothing to do with Rolex vs Tudor just personal taste. Now I did own a Tudor chronograph a few years back and it was spectacular.

Attachment 836803

I'm thinking Mercedes hands like on the 1680 and 79090. Nice Chrono.

[cornerstore]

Originally Posted by JacksonStone

Speculative more than hypothetical, I think, but I take your point. A lot has changed in the industry - and in marketing practices in general - since the time of the four-digit Rolexes. While anything is possible, there would have to be additional, substantial changes either to the brands or the industry for Rolex to want to produce Tudor clones. Given the current market segments the brands inhabit, I don't see it happening.

In answer to your question, no, I wouldn't buy an ETA-based Tudor clone of a Rolex to get a lower price. One of the joys I get out of my SubC is the outstanding accuracy of the 3135, to say nothing of the smooth-as-silk winding action. It's an indication I didn't pay just to have a nice case for housing a run-of-the-mill movement. I'd have no interest in an ETA-based version with a different brand logo. Also, like Japenny, I too appreciate Tudors because they're Tudors, not would-be Rolexes.

I get what you are saying. Perhaps that's why the brands stopped producing the "clones" in the late 90's . I will say my Tudor 79090 eta keeps as good a time as my new Rolex pieces but the wind is not as smooth.

[JacksonStone]

Originally Posted by cornerstore

I get what you are saying. Perhaps that's why the brands stopped producing the "clones" in the late 90's . I will say my Tudor 79090 eta keeps as good a time as my new Rolex pieces but the wind is not as smooth.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of time are your pieces keeping? My 2016 Sub is between +0.5 and +1s/day*, which the best I've personally experienced with a mechanical watch. I've never had an ETA movement that was anywhere near that. Even the the Omega 8400 in my Seamaster 300 can't compete. To be clear, I'm no in-house snob. I've been perfectly happy with modified ETA movements in a number of my watches. But this 3135 is in another league.


* For the heck of it, I just checked again. I set it to Time.gov on Monday morning. Right now, is about +1.5s, so it's actually within +0.5s/day.

[Old Expat Beast]

One or two seconds a day is about normal for all my Tudor ETAs, either fast or slow depending on how they rest overnight, but they have all been regulated by Rolex Service Centre. All my Rolexes run about three or four secs fast a day, whatever the overnight position, so the ETAs are easier to keep on time (speed up or slow down) without re-setting.

[JacksonStone]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

All my Rolexes run about three or four secs fast a day, whatever the overnight position, so the ETAs are easier to keep on time (speed up or slow down) without re-setting.

Interesting. Are any of them green tag? I'm trying to figure out if the new Superlative Chronometer standards and testing are making a difference, or if I just got lucky.

[Old Expat Beast]

No green tags, but one of them would have been if it had been in the shop for another year. Many thousands of existing in-store watches got red tags replaced with green tags, so it's not an indicator of any change in movement quality, etc.

[speedmaster73]

Originally Posted by JacksonStone

Speculative more than hypothetical, I think, but I take your point. A lot has changed in the industry - and in marketing practices in general - since the time of the four-digit Rolexes. While anything is possible, there would have to be additional, substantial changes either to the brands or the industry for Rolex to want to produce Tudor clones. Given the current market segments the brands inhabit, I don't see it happening.

In answer to your question, no, I wouldn't buy an ETA-based Tudor clone of a Rolex to get a lower price. One of the joys I get out of my SubC is the outstanding accuracy of the 3135, to say nothing of the smooth-as-silk winding action. It's an indication I didn't pay just to have a nice case for housing a run-of-the-mill movement. I'd have no interest in an ETA-based version with a different brand logo. Also, like Japenny, I too appreciate Tudors because they're Tudors, not would-be Rolexes.

a 3135 winds like sandpaper compared to an IWC ETA 2892

There are different grades of ETA

[JacksonStone]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

No green tags, but one of them would have been if it had been in the shop for another year. Many thousands of existing in-store watches got red tags replaced with green tags, so it's not an indicator of any change in movement quality, etc.

Maybe I'm naive, but I was under the impression the green tags are intended to indicate the more stringent testing standards employed by Rolex as of July 2015, indicating +/- 2s/day on cased movements. If the red-tag movements weren't subjected to those tests, isn't it misleading to put green tags on them?

[Old Expat Beast]

Green tags just mean a five year warranty, as far as I know. This letter was doing the rounds when the change happened. I circled the relevant part for you.

[JacksonStone]

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

Green tags just mean a five year warranty, as far as I know. This letter was doing the rounds when the change happened. I circled the relevant part for you.

Thanks. Based on that, it would seem the tags are no indication of the new specs. How, then, are we supposed to know which watches are which? It's an academic question for me, since my watch is well within the new specs. I'm just curious.

[nick c]

I own both so big yes

[JacksonStone]

Originally Posted by cornerstore

Perhaps that's why the brands stopped producing the "clones" in the late 90's .

Or perhaps it's because other brands have started doing it, such that it has become hacky.

[cornerstore]

Originally Posted by JacksonStone

Just out of curiosity, what kind of time are your pieces keeping? My 2016 Sub is between +0.5 and +1s/day*, which the best I've personally experienced with a mechanical watch. I've never had an ETA movement that was anywhere near that. Even the the Omega 8400 in my Seamaster 300 can't compete. To be clear, I'm no in-house snob. I've been perfectly happy with modified ETA movements in a number of my watches. But this 3135 is in another league

* For the heck of it, I just checked again. I set it to Time.gov on Monday morning. Right now, is about +1.5s, so it's actually within +0.5s/day.

What Adam said, timed over 36 hours against two Daytona's, a Milgauss and Explorer.

Originally Posted by Old Expat Beast

One or two seconds a day is about normal for all my Tudor ETAs, either fast or slow depending on how they rest overnight, but they have all been regulated by Rolex Service Centre. All my Rolexes run about three or four secs fast a day, whatever the overnight position, so the ETAs are easier to keep on time (speed up or slow down) without re-setting.

My experience as well.

Originally Posted by nick c

I own both so big yes

I'm in the yes camp as well

[cornerstore]

Originally Posted by JacksonStone

Or perhaps it's because other brands have started doing it, such that it has become hacky.

Seems to still be working for Rolex. Many of those Invicta owners are likely wanting a Rolex and will get one because they bought the Invicta.

[subtona]

in addition to but not stead of.

[nick c]

Originally Posted by cornerstore

What Adam said, timed over 36 hours against two Daytona's, a Milgauss and Explorer.


My experience as well.



I'm in the yes camp as well

Beautiful Patrick

[JacksonStone]

Originally Posted by cornerstore

Many of those Invicta owners are likely wanting a Rolex and will get one because they bought the Invicta.

What do you base that on? I could just as easily speculate that Invicta owners buy them because they don't really know what a good watch is, and possibly don't even recognize it's a Rolex knock-off. I have no data for that, but it's just as good a theory as yours, provided you're just theorizing. If you have numbers, I'm happy to see them.

I do have anecdotal evidence, however: my g/f's father wears an Invicta, because he saw one being sold on Shop NBC, and thought it looked nice. He doesn't know the first thing about watches other than you wear them on your wrist to be able to tell the time of day. Likewise, I was in a jeweler's that happened to sell Invicta, and the sales associate had no idea some of them were reminiscent of Rolex designs. I doubt he could have picked a Rolex out of a lineup without a logo, and this was a guy paid to sell Invictas.

All that is beside my point, though. My point was that since hack brands like Invicta are now cloning Rolex designs, it wouldn't make sense for Rolex's own brand to do the same. That would essentially reduce Tudor to the level of Invicta, which doesn't serve Tudor or its parent company.

[cornerstore]

Originally Posted by JacksonStone

What do you base that on?

All that is beside my point, though. My point was that since hack brands like Invicta are now cloning Rolex designs, it wouldn't make sense for Rolex's own brand to do the same. That would essentially reduce Tudor to the level of Invicta, which doesn't serve Tudor or its parent company.

Based on conjecture, as Invicta did somewhat of a Rolex Sub design I presume Invicta thought some prospective buyers were wanting a Rolex Sub looking watch but wanting a cheaper alternative. Tudor reissuing their traditional design would be going back to their roots so I don't think it would reduce it to a lesser level, just restore it to its long running heritage.