Service vs "Adjusting" in slowing watch

[Martin_Taylor]

If a watch is fast/slow regularly,

Shall it be adjusted to right timing or shall it be serviced fully?

Thanks Fellows

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Martin_Taylor

If a watch is fast/slow regularly,

Shall it be adjusted to right timing or shall it be serviced fully?

Thanks Fellows

That would depend on how old the watch and by how much the +or- was if just a few seconds either way simple regulation is all thats needed only.Without much information in your post cannot give a better answer, and consistency is very important in any mechanical watch.

[Martin_Taylor]

Originally Posted by padi56

That would depend on how old the watch and by how much the +or- was if just a few seconds either way simple regulation is all thats needed only.Without much information in your post cannot give a better answer, and consistency is very important in any mechanical watch.

how about a watch +- 20s and it is year 2000?

thanks

[Furrygoat]

This is something I've been thinking about recently, so I'll hijack.

I have two watches from around 2010. Both about +20 spd (one changed from about +6 recently.) Took them to a watch repair guy and he said the timing machine showed they were in good shape and didn't need a service. (I'm guessing he looked at amplitude and error.)

But we're still getting close to 10 years since production. Service anyway, or regulate?

[toxicavenger]

It is according to the beat rate error and amplitude. If they are all over the place then a regulation won't work.

[amh]

Regulate first, it's inexpensive. If that doesn't fix, then service.

[Chiboy]

Wow, IMO 20 seconds per day ain't right. I don't know how much regulation can adjust, but it might not be that much. I'd be surprised if you didn't need a service, but there are much more knowledgeable people than me who will chime in.

[kilyung]

Originally Posted by toxicavenger

It is according to the beat rate error and amplitude. If they are all over the place then a regulation won't work.

This. It's the reason why I own a timegrapher (also studying watchmaking). I can tell when a watch needs a simple regulation or time for service.

[Furrygoat]

Originally Posted by kilyung

This. It's the reason why I own a timegrapher (also studying watchmaking). I can tell when a watch needs a simple regulation or time for service.

Originally Posted by toxicavenger

It is according to the beat rate error and amplitude. If they are all over the place then a regulation won't work.

Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere, but can you have a watch with great amplitude and acceptable error that would still need a service just for clean and lubrication?

Or put in a different way: do amplitude and error problems alone constitute the requirements for service, or are there other factors that ignore the feedback from a timegrapher?

[Chadridv]

Originally Posted by Furrygoat

Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere, but can you have a watch with great amplitude and acceptable error that would still need a service just for clean and lubrication?

Or put in a different way: do amplitude and error problems alone constitute the requirements for service, or are there other factors that ignore the feedback from a timegrapher?

These are good questions. Curious as well.

My guess... is that there can be issues with the watch that require service, despite a watch functioning well, keeping good time and showing great amplitude. One small example is that you could have issues with a crown stem and mono block that I don't affecting a timeograph report.

[breitlings]

I look at how consistent it is. IFF its very consistent in its loss in a period then adjust. If losses are not very consistent or if there is no more adjustment to be made then it is time for service.

[toxicavenger]

Originally Posted by Furrygoat

do amplitude and error problems alone constitute the requirements for service, or are there other factors that ignore the feedback from a timegrapher?

The are some factors you use to determine whether or not it needs a service. Other factors can be low reserve, not being able to wind it manually, losing time etc.

My company watchmaker believes in fixing the actual problem of the watch, and not automatically saying "it needs a full service". Because most of the time it can be a cheaper solution to problem.

[JP Chestnut]

Originally Posted by Martin_Taylor

If a watch is fast/slow regularly,

Shall it be adjusted to right timing or shall it be serviced fully?

Thanks Fellows

Time keeping is only one part of needing a service. What's the amplitude and beat rate? What's the power reserve? An otherwise healthy watch that tells slightly poor time is a good candidate for regulation.

[JP Chestnut]

Originally Posted by amh

Regulate first, it's inexpensive. If that doesn't fix, then service.

Stick it on a timegrapher first. It's essentially free and doesn't risk damaging the case.

[sensui]

Originally Posted by Furrygoat

Maybe this has been discussed elsewhere, but can you have a watch with great amplitude and acceptable error that would still need a service just for clean and lubrication?

Or put in a different way: do amplitude and error problems alone constitute the requirements for service, or are there other factors that ignore the feedback from a timegrapher?

I'm no watchmaker but I have a really close relationship with my local CW21 guy that's been around for many decades. Of course he has a timegrapher and usually evaluates any of my watches (modern or vintage) before servicing. I'm of the belief that I service watches every 5-6 years anyway as maintenance but on a lot of vintage pieces....there are many risks to opening a watch and taking off the hands etc/handling the dial....so you'd want to do it as least as possible.

Usually amplitude is a great way to determine the condition of the movement....but the key is measuring the amplitude over periods in different positions (which his timegrapher does, it rotates the watch and measures over periods in different key positions). If the amplitude looks good and error rate looks low in all positions, he tends to recommend to wait on the service on vintage pieces......I'd think this is good advice as he's a guy that could sometimes tell if something's wrong with a watch by the way it winds (that's how many watches he's handled throughout the years).

To answer the OP's question....it's not uncommon for watches to have good amplitude but bad error rates or get magnetized over time and be off COSC significantly....as long as the error is consistent (for example if it's +20, it's +20 every day, not +20 one day, -10 another, and -30 the next etc). If that's the case, probably the watch only needs a regulation and not a full service.

[toxicavenger]

Originally Posted by JP Chestnut

Stick it on a timegrapher first. It's essentially free and doesn't risk damaging the case.

[madmax21]

Originally Posted by sensui

I'm no watchmaker but I have a really close relationship with my local CW21 guy that's been around for many decades. Of course he has a timegrapher and usually evaluates any of my watches (modern or vintage) before servicing. I'm of the belief that I service watches every 5-6 years anyway as maintenance but on a lot of vintage pieces....there are many risks to opening a watch and taking off the hands etc/handling the dial....so you'd want to do it as least as possible.

Usually amplitude is a great way to determine the condition of the movement....but the key is measuring the amplitude over periods in different positions (which his timegrapher does, it rotates the watch and measures over periods in different key positions). If the amplitude looks good and error rate looks low in all positions, he tends to recommend to wait on the service on vintage pieces......I'd think this is good advice as he's a guy that could sometimes tell if something's wrong with a watch by the way it winds (that's how many watches he's handled throughout the years).

To answer the OP's question....it's not uncommon for watches to have good amplitude but bad error rates or get magnetized over time and be off COSC significantly....as long as the error is consistent (for example if it's +20, it's +20 every day, not +20 one day, -10 another, and -30 the next etc). If that's the case, probably the watch only needs a regulation and not a full service.

I agree completely regarding the difference between when a watch require service or just being regulated. I think it's been well said in this post and would like to also say that I find way too many people to buy high-end luxury watches try to save a few bucks by not servicing their watches, and frankly I've never understood that attitude. I mean would you buy a Ferrari or Lamborghini and then not change the oil or not do proper maintenance to it I think it's the same thing with watches.

I totally understand the whole thing with vintage pieces and don't have an issue with the mentality of service only when you need to for these cases, but I mean you by yourself a $20,000 watch is $800 every 5 to 7 years really in the end of the world.

[toxicavenger]

Originally Posted by madmax21

I agree completely regarding the difference between when a watch require service or just being regulated. I think it's been well said in this post and would like to also say that I find way too many people to buy high-end luxury watches try to save a few bucks by not servicing their watches, and frankly I've never understood that attitude. I mean would you buy a Ferrari or Lamborghini and then not change the oil or not do proper maintenance to it I think it's the same thing with watches.

I totally understand the whole thing with vintage pieces and don't have an issue with the mentality of service only when you need to for these cases, but I mean you by yourself a $20,000 watch is $800 every 5 to 7 years really in the end of the world.

Good comment. But if the spark plugs in my Ferrari are miss-firing would I rebuild the engine to fix it? Maybe you would but I wouldn't. I would fix the issue and drive it. That is unless there was a ton of miles on it.

[madmax21]

Originally Posted by toxicavenger

Good comment. But if the spark plugs in my Ferrari are miss-firing would I rebuild the engine to fix it? Maybe you would but I wouldn't. I would fix the issue and drive it. That is unless there was a ton of miles on it.

I think spark plugs are a bad example being a car guy I can tell you that when I replace the timing belt i also replace the water pump. Watches work a little differently than cars obviously but every five to six years an overhaul is required and recommended by the manufacturer.

I find some people like the luxury watch around the wrist however when it comes to paying the bill it's another story and that's my point if you're going to buy a watch that's mechanical whether it's a $500 Sekio or a $20,000 Rolex maintenance is required the same as comparing say a Civic to say a GT-R.

[FTX I]

Originally Posted by Martin_Taylor

how about a watch +- 20s and it is year 2000?

thanks

With no service history it's a 17 yrs watch running +-20s. I would service right away.

[madmax21]

2012-13 Ferrari California | 2012-13 Ferrari 458 Italia | 2012-13 Ferrari FF

There are three types of scheduled maintenance for your Ferrari. The Genuine Maintenance Program covers scheduled maintenance as listed below. Anything not expressly listed here is not included in the program.

ANNUAL MAINTENANCE*
Scheduled to be performed every 12 months and it is for vehicles that are generally driven less than 12,500 miles per year.

Engine Oil (replace)
Engine Oil Filter (replace)
Pollen Filter (replace)
Scheduled checks
Labor

*Every 12 months OR 12,500 miles, whichever comes first

TIME RELATED MAINTENANCE
ONLY EVERY TWO (2) YEARS
Scheduled to be performed at specific time intervals regardless of the vehicle's mileage

Brake System Fluid (replace)
Air Filter (replace)
- FF model only
Auxiliary Belts (replace)
- California and 458 Italia models only
Scheduled Checks
Labor

MILEAGE RELATED MAINTENANCE
Every 12,500 miles
Scheduled to be performed at intervals of 12,500 miles and it is generally for vehicles driven more than 12,500 miles per year.

Engine Oil (replace)*
Engine Oil Filter (replace) *
Pollen Filter (replace) *
Air Filter (replace)
- California and 458 Italia models only
Scheduled Checks
Labor

*Every 12,500 miles OR one (1) year, whichever comes first.

The following items are mileage related services and will be covered under this Program only if the vehicle actually reaches the specific mileage prior to the program expiration date (within 7 years from the original date of delivery)

ADDITIONAL MILEAGE RELATED MAINTENANCE
Every 37,500 miles

Spark Plugs (replace)
Auxiliary Belts (replace)
- FF models only*
Labor

*Every 37,500 miles OR 4 years, whichever comes first

ADDITIONAL MILEAGE RELATED MAINTENANCE
Every 62,500 miles

Gearbox Oil (replace)
Hydraulic Steering Oil (replace)
Labor

ADDITIONAL MILEAGE RELATED MAINTENANCE
Every 80,000 miles

Oxygen sensors (replace)
Labor

ADDITIONAL MILEAGE RELATED MAINTENANCE
Every 100,000 miles

Catalytic Convertors (replace)
Fuel Injectors (replace)
Labor

All maintenance work which is not part of Scheduled Maintenance, marked with an asterisk (*) in the maintenance schedule or marked "replace if necessary" in the Warranty and Service booklet, in the list of scheduled maintenance work, are specifically excluded under this program. The plan is voided if the vehicle's mechanics and electronics are modified without the manufacturer's authorization and/or if the odometer has been tampered with.

[madmax21]

Originally Posted by ftx i

with no service history it's a 17 yrs watch running +-20s. I would service right away.

x2

[breitlings]

Originally Posted by madmax21

2012-13 Ferrari California | 2012-13 Ferrari 458 Italia | 2012-13 Ferrari FF

There are three types of scheduled maintenance for your Ferrari. The Genuine Maintenance Program covers scheduled maintenance as listed below. Anything not expressly listed here is not included in the program.

ANNUAL MAINTENANCE*
Scheduled to be performed every 12 months and it is for vehicles that are generally driven less than 12,500 miles per year.

Engine Oil (replace)
Engine Oil Filter (replace)
Pollen Filter (replace)
Scheduled checks
Labor

*Every 12 months OR 12,500 miles, whichever comes first

TIME RELATED MAINTENANCE
ONLY EVERY TWO (2) YEARS
Scheduled to be performed at specific time intervals regardless of the vehicle's mileage

Brake System Fluid (replace)
Air Filter (replace)
- FF model only
Auxiliary Belts (replace)
- California and 458 Italia models only
Scheduled Checks
Labor

MILEAGE RELATED MAINTENANCE
Every 12,500 miles
Scheduled to be performed at intervals of 12,500 miles and it is generally for vehicles driven more than 12,500 miles per year.

Engine Oil (replace)*
Engine Oil Filter (replace) *
Pollen Filter (replace) *
Air Filter (replace)
- California and 458 Italia models only
Scheduled Checks
Labor

*Every 12,500 miles OR one (1) year, whichever comes first.

The following items are mileage related services and will be covered under this Program only if the vehicle actually reaches the specific mileage prior to the program expiration date (within 7 years from the original date of delivery)

ADDITIONAL MILEAGE RELATED MAINTENANCE
Every 37,500 miles

Spark Plugs (replace)
Auxiliary Belts (replace)
- FF models only*
Labor

*Every 37,500 miles OR 4 years, whichever comes first

ADDITIONAL MILEAGE RELATED MAINTENANCE
Every 62,500 miles

Gearbox Oil (replace)
Hydraulic Steering Oil (replace)
Labor

ADDITIONAL MILEAGE RELATED MAINTENANCE
Every 80,000 miles

Oxygen sensors (replace)
Labor

ADDITIONAL MILEAGE RELATED MAINTENANCE
Every 100,000 miles

Catalytic Convertors (replace)
Fuel Injectors (replace)
Labor

All maintenance work which is not part of Scheduled Maintenance, marked with an asterisk (*) in the maintenance schedule or marked "replace if necessary" in the Warranty and Service booklet, in the list of scheduled maintenance work, are specifically excluded under this program. The plan is voided if the vehicle's mechanics and electronics are modified without the manufacturer's authorization and/or if the odometer has been tampered with.

That is incredible. Makes the 355 service schedule look insane.

[madmax21]

Originally Posted by breitlings

That is incredible. Makes the 355 service schedule look insane.

Yeah i know what you mean...i owned 355 and it was pricey to maintain but since i sold it i miss that car..makes an 800 dollar bill feel like chicken feed anyway my point is is the price of owning a beautiful watch maintain it properly and you won't have to worry about it

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Chiboy

Wow, IMO 20 seconds per day ain't right. I don't know how much regulation can adjust, but it might not be that much. I'd be surprised if you didn't need a service, but there are much more knowledgeable people than me who will chime in.

Today regulation is a very very simple task for any good watchmaker,its accomplished by turning the Microstella adjustment screws and nuts on the balance wheel.The two smaller Microstella screws make adjustments of one second for each turn on the tool, and the larger Microstella, two seconds for one turn on the tool,but adjustment must be balanced with the opposite gold adjustment screw. The rate adjustment on the balance wheel it's a max of around 150 seconds either way.And you need a microstella special tool and a timing machine although it's a easy job takes about 10 -15 minutes and expect this task is the most done daily by watchmakers worldwide.But seeing the OP watch is from 2000 and if no service history then a full service is needed then it will have a two year service warranty.

Microstella tool this is the older tool Rolex now has a more moderned one but it does the same job and adjustment is done the same way.


Balance-wheel.

[toxicavenger]

Originally Posted by madmax21

I think spark plugs are a bad example being a car guy I can tell you that when I replace the timing belt i also replace the water pump. Watches work a little differently than cars obviously but every five to six years an overhaul is required and recommended by the manufacturer.

It might be a bad example for you but a movement adjustment is as basic as a spark change. So like I said, still no reason to service a complete movement.

But I just notice he said it is a 20 year old watch. If anything the gear train could use some lubrication.

I am not a watchmaker though. And only they can tell you what it exactly needs when they look at it.

[Chiboy]

Originally Posted by padi56

Today regulation is a very very simple task for any good watchmaker,its accomplished by turning the Microstella adjustment screws and nuts on the balance wheel.The two smaller Microstella screws make adjustments of one second for each turn on the tool, and the larger Microstella, two seconds for one turn on the tool,but adjustment must be balanced with the opposite gold adjustment screw. The rate adjustment on the balance wheel it's a max of around 150 seconds either way.And you need a microstella special tool and a timing machine although it's a easy job takes about 10 -15 minutes and expect this task is the most done daily by watchmakers worldwide.But seeing the OP watch is from 2000 and if no service history then a full service is needed then it will have a two year service warranty.

Microstella tool this is the older tool Rolex now has a more moderned one but it does the same job and adjustment is done the same way.


Balance-wheel.

Thanks for this. I would have never thought the Microstella adjustment could adjust up to 150 seconds/day!

[toxicavenger]

This is one of the ones my guys have

[Martin_Taylor]

Thanks guys

my rolex certified watchmaker checked my watch and say just need to regulate for now