Vacheron Constantin and Patek Philippe

[Class_first]

Fellow members, I am new in this forum and what a beautiful forum this is - I will start my forum history with a familiar topic, but I'd like to hear your views -

I was so far an Omega and Rolex fanboy (yes, this is real) and my occasional extended window shopping trips were focussed on these 2. Then one day I had decided to visit the boutiques of the oldest Maison, Vacheron Constantin (1755) ... and also Blancpain (1735)..out of curiosity as I had never had any of their products in my hands and also because they have been around significantly longer than most of their Peers.

Patek was founded in 1839 ... 84 years after Vacheron and 104 years after Blancpain. these numbers have to be digested.

Blancpain was in business until the quartz crisis. they have refused to produce quartz watches and they came back to business when Biver bought the IP right to the brand in 1983. remarkable fact. but i will not focus on blancpain here.

JLC - 1833
AP - 1875

Vacheron Constantin, further Facts:
- produce 20k watches/year, as compared to Patek's 50k - exclusivity
- bear the Geneva hallmark, as compared to Patek who have their "own" hallmark (v convenient..)
- have timepieces of outstanding beauty and refinement, as I could witness in the boutique
- have no waiting lists, as compared to Patek who create a somewhat elusive feel&touch of desirability by limiting production, thus fuelling the myths around the whole Thing, further increasing the desirability, the length of the waiting lists, ADs preferring "good" clients to new clients etc.... will focus on this point below...
- are "Independent", which most people celebrate as something great. I do not grasp why this is a great Feature. isnt is that like that they become untouchable? the fact that they have their own hallmark speaks for itself. intransparent? secondly, looking at Richemont, they have Lange, JLC and VC under their umbrella... brands in the same corporate holding better be great competitors, or sooner or later the shareholder(s) will declare "le roi c'est moi" with no other option than The End or sale to a chinese "fund" :-)

what's the point here...

what makes patek that much superior to VC?

VC has produced the most complex timepiece ever. I dont have Details but it is fact. so they are purportedly "Independent" but still manage to produce many technical miracles. so not Patek but VC.

VC's Quality is second to none. visible with the bare eye. one should look at the Photograph below... pure masculinity in spite of classic Dress watch shape... perfect dresswatch....

VC does not annoy its potential and actual clientele with artificially long waiting lists. you order, they produce and they deliver.

why does patek find it necessary to create artificial mystery by undersupply? can they compete if they were to increase production? can they still compete for ultimate Top of The Trinity position?

What is the myth behind the Nautilus? the Crystal has glare. the dial is gorgeous but only in the right light and only when seen from straight vertical line above. otherwise it reflects and the beauty goes. is it a beautiful watch? the dial is ugly in the eyes of many. I see the fascination with it, I do - its looks are unique. but why would I spend 25 grand for it,a scratch-sensitive steelwatch of reliability subpar to Rolex rather than JLC, Lange, or VC? especially VC with its heritage and its achievement of having built the most complex timepieces ever.

the below VC model: no glare. perfect Colors from any angle. Beauty.

Yes, VC's pricing is not subpar to Patek. But they are unique as they are just less of them in the wild. why would people not want this exclusivity?

or to put it differently: why are VC watches not a hot topic neither here in the forum nor elsewhere in the web?

what would happen with Patek had they not come up with the Nautilus? can they ever discontinue it? imagine they would decide to discontinue the blue 5711 - what would happen to the brand?

[DCheeta]

Do you own any watches from either brand? I'd like to hear ownership experiences.

I also find it interesting how brand perception is formed and perpetuated. Personally I haven't owned either of them, but for some reason I'm more drawn to VC.

[jon_jon]

VC is a great Swiss watch manufacturer and is still revered as part of the "Big 3" in haute horology. This means they have the technical know how to create some of the most complicated watches in the world and their watchmakers can repair these complicated watches when they are returned for service.

However IMO VC's golden years were a generation ago. When the company changed ownership and became part of Richemont, people's perception of the brand began to dwindle. Their marketing doesn't appeal to the same crowd as PP or AP. However within a certain niche group of people, VC is still held in high regard, right next to Patek and AP.

People talk about production numbers and exclusivity. There is truth to exclusivity as long as the product is in demand. If there is no demand, it doesn't matter if a company makes only 100 watches. It doesn't add to its exclusivity.

Look at Rolex as they make close to a million watches a year. Their production numbers are very high and so they are not "exclusive". But there are still long wait lists for the SS Daytona because of the demand. What fuels demand? Probably a combination of marketing hype and supply control. Rolex and Patek manage this combination well with a certain watches. Other watch companies (e.g. RM) also manage the demand/supply ratio well. However I don't see VC creating a demand for their watches like other watch companies.

[martinr]

Just buy the watch you like, that's what I do, I like Patek and don't care if you think VC is superior.

[RHJ]

... waiting for the rooster fight...

[HL65]

Originally Posted by jon_jon

VC is a great Swiss watch manufacturer and is still revered as part of the "Big 3" in haute horology. This means they have the technical know how to create some of the most complicated watches in the world and their watchmakers can repair these complicated watches when they are returned for service.

However IMO VC's golden years were a generation ago. When the company changed ownership and became part of Richemont, people's perception of the brand began to dwindle. Their marketing doesn't appeal to the same crowd as PP or AP. However within a certain niche group of people, VC is still held in high regard, right next to Patek and AP.

People talk about production numbers and exclusivity. There is truth to exclusivity as long as the product is in demand. If there is no demand, it doesn't matter if a company makes only 100 watches. It doesn't add to its exclusivity.

Look at Rolex as they make close to a million watches a year. Their production numbers are very high and so they are not "exclusive". But there are still long wait lists for the SS Daytona because of the demand. What fuels demand? Probably a combination of marketing hype and supply control. Rolex and Patek manage this combination well with a certain watches. Other watch companies (e.g. RM) also manage the demand/supply ratio well. However I don't see VC creating a demand for their watches like other watch companies.

Well said Jon

[Class_first]

Originally Posted by HL65

Well said Jon

True, well said

you raise some important points. VC indeed does not do any noticeable marketing but still entertain pricing on the level of Patek. so in a way if you COMPARE to PP then VC does seem to ask for more money for value, and what is the signalling effect of that? that, and the fact that their timepieces are beyond reproach in the flesh (similar to PP and Lange), as opposed to JLC where I see a clear difference in terms of refinement - they are the movement specialists after all) gives the impression of a Company who does not think it Needs extensive marketing to retain the brand heritage it used to have.

what else? VC offers personalized services. they build complications on demand. they engrave. they will do whatever clients request, which is IMHO REAL client service. what is Patek's client service? 6 months to service a watch?

what else.... VC offers service and maintenance for any timepiece ever produced by them. so if anyone digs out a 260-year-old timepiece from the dead, VC will take it on...

and yes, this goes hand in hand with the fact that if you order the watch, it will be made for you and you will hold it within weeks, as opposed to years...

I do not own either, VC or Patek, so I am not conflicted. I dont like to throw money into some oversized Hype and even knowing that having a VC may not be a great value retainer bec the PP Hype is a fact, I dont care as I want to own the brand and model I like, even though 20-30 grand is a hell lot of money for me.

the fact that VC does not make marketing is IMHO rather appealing. so the fact that they have a loyal following with 20k produced watches a year, arguably this will be less as Richemont shareholder has decided to reduce production of VC and Piaget last year ---- yes, I agree there is a point to "not being Independent" - but again, this is more sth which keeps the brands on its toes to become better and better. so my wild guess is VC will ake changes to stay on top. but it will not be wit artificial undersupply like Patek. they have for instance, just as JLC in the US, began to distribute their timepieces via the web. why not? Appeals to the millenials and new money. as long as you Keep the luxury boutiques in the ajor places, These 2 go hand in hand....

ah yes, and my last points on patek .... at least I can raise Things here, after all this is the Rolexforum :-) so PP introduces the white Nautilus in 2013 or so...demand so far has been rather sluggish, not bad-bad but nothing compared to the blue one. however, even for the white one there are waiting lists. how do we explain that? if we consider for one moment fixed production Levels for year to year, and only a mild linear increase (if at all), then how can it be that the white one, even though clearly not popular, faces waiting lists? up to 2 years I was told here in my Region. friends in switzerland told me there is Shorter, depending on your client Status and Zurich or Geneva. but there are waiting lists. so there is a pre-planned supply shortage???? to increase the desirability?

and can someone tell me how it is guaranteed that Patek will stay Independent? isnt it that when Thierry Stern retires there is a real risk that Independence is gone i.e. Company is shareholderized and sold. Rolex is in the hands of the Hans Wildorf trust, so they go nowhere. Breitling has just been sold to CVC. so PP are the only "Independent" brand out there worth mentioning.

here is a Quote from Thierry Stern: "Good thing though, I was never pushed by my father which is also the same thing that I do with my children. I believe that I should let them do what they enjoy.”
“When I was young, my father would always ask me if this was what I wanted and he would just say that it’s going to happen when I’m ready. I never had any pressure from my family. That’s why in my children, I believe that before Patek Philippe, it is their happiness that is more important.”

and re Rolex: the Hype around the new Daytona, especially the white model, is hardly understandable. as for me, I like the old one much better - it's just more Rolex. as much as this is a matter of taste, waiting lists of 5 years for a mass-produced watch is really very very hard to understand, but here it is not Rolex to blame as it is obviously impossible to increase their production significantly with the focus on one model only. especially as they produce watches not by hand in a small manufacture. and particularly not in the short run, this is simply technically not possible nor makes great sense. Even Rolex could not have predicted the success of the new model. but yes, in the long run production Levels should be gradually notched up to match up with the demand.

Waiting lists create the myth but it is not something which speaks to me.

[KarlS]

Search function will reveal the answer....been discussed ad nauseum

[GB-man]

Let me see if I can answer all your questions.



Just kidding! You asked far to many

That said, I hear you. I really do. VC makes some great stuff. I love the 1921 and would kill for one on SS. That said, they are not Patek and never will be. Patek is Patek.

This is like the guy who goes on and on about why buy an iPhone? The android is clearly superior and more limited!

[texasmade]

I really like the Traditionelle chrono 47192 more than Patek's manual wind chrono (which I'm not even sure is being made by VC anymore). Most of the other stuff, I think Patek does slightly better than VC with the exception of the Calatrava line which I don't think is done very well.

[tyler1980]

I generally like PP more than VC as personally i think they make more pieces that i am drawn to.

That said perception matters a great deal at this level. That factors into things like perceived value which then fuels the secondary and vintage market and leads to repeat purchases. Knowing you are going to lose a huge amount of value flipping a VC vs a PP matters, even if you are someone who plans on keeping a watch forever as your watch is instantly worth a whole lot less the second you buy it.

Its the same principle with money. Its only "worth" what it says on the bill because we have collectively agreed it is worth that much. If everyone all of a sudden lost confidence in the monetary system then paper money would just be pieces of paper and be worthless. PP is superior because of the same principle.

You didn't mention ALS at all. As far as watchmaking, they are IMO the highest of them all in some regards. They are overlooked because they are not swiss, they are not independent, and they have poor resale value. The datograph movement is the best chronograph movement ever made to me and i would rather have that than a PP 5170 or any VC.

[Class_first]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

I generally like PP more than VC as personally i think they make more pieces that i am drawn to.

That said perception matters a great deal at this level. That factors into things like perceived value which then fuels the secondary and vintage market and leads to repeat purchases. Knowing you are going to lose a huge amount of value flipping a VC vs a PP matters, even if you are someone who plans on keeping a watch forever as your watch is instantly worth a whole lot less the second you buy it.

Its the same principle with money. Its only "worth" what it says on the bill because we have collectively agreed it is worth that much. If everyone all of a sudden lost confidence in the monetary system then paper money would just be pieces of paper and be worthless. PP is superior because of the same principle.

You didn't mention ALS at all. As far as watchmaking, they are IMO the highest of them all in some regards. They are overlooked because they are not swiss, they are not independent, and they have poor resale value. The datograph movement is the best chronograph movement ever made to me and i would rather have that than a PP 5170 or any VC.

if I dont plan to sell my >20 grand watch until I am gone, then no, I will not care what ist value is on the next day after purchase. anyone caring about this is not someone who buys a watch he/she genuinely loves. and for me, spending so much money on a watch requires as an absolute mandatory condition precedent that I am in love with it - otherwise you could call it boredom, too much money, "Investment" or other Things not worthy of further discussion in this forum.

so if you mention resale value then you show what eventually matters to you. anyone who believes that the sale of a 20 grand watch at purchase value will yield him greater financial certainty in life after suffering an economically adverse Event is not rational.

as to VC vs. PP vs. ALS and the perceived superiority of PP, which fuels everything - money-like Status, Retention of value etc... : the intrinsic qualities of a purchase should be put equal with the intrinsic value of a watch:

1) Quality of materials and finishing
2) beauty of the movement (whether inhouse or not is irrelevant)
3) reliability - Geneva hallmark, COSC, anything which is Independent criteria
4) history, heritage, how long in business
5) achievements (VC made the most complex pieces)
6) CLIENT SERVICE! VC ofering individual services such as engravings, etc

I think PP was primarily lucky with the Genta influence - w/o that they would be subpar to VC.

and good you mention ALS - IMO we can put them into the samet category as VC: they deserve way more credit, and it is unfortunate they went out of business after WWII. I am personally not a fan of subdials as 100.000% legibility is IMO critical for the range of VC/PP/ALS/JLC, also owing to the classic 38mm Diameter there is not enough masculine presence on the wrist. the Nautilus scores in this area. as much as most of VC's collection, but Lange is on the lower ranks... the Saxonia is nice but too thin hands, indices, simply not the Level of masculinity one Needs :-)

[Tony64]

Originally Posted by RHJ

... waiting for the rooster fight...

I was thinking the same but have been impressed by the restraint.

Didn't honestly read thru the entirety of the longer posts, but thought it smelled like troll bait. It's probably just me though, I've become too cynical.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by Tony64

I was thinking the same but have been impressed by the restraint.

Didn't honestly read thru the entirety of the longer posts, but thought it smelled like troll bait. It's probably just me though, I've become too cynical.

At least it was not a thread about Hublot being on that level, then i would get the popcorn ready.

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by Tony64

I was thinking the same but have been impressed by the restraint.



Didn't honestly read thru the entirety of the longer posts, but thought it smelled like troll bait. It's probably just me though, I've become too cynical.

I am dreading the possible incoming!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[KarlS]

I dont think ALS is third tier as every ALS owner points out Dufour wears a Datograph!!

[Star Ferry]

in my mind, answer is brand value. It's hard to sell a luxury watch without a desirable brand name -- hence why these companies pour so much money into marketing

Re. production number of 20K, is that really a sign of exclusivity? VC watches tend to struggle in the secondary and gray market relative to PP watches. If VC tripled production to match that of PP, they'd do even worse because there'd be no market for the new production

Rolex sells a million watches per year at $5000+ because they can, and the reason they can is because there's a lot of demand for the brand. similarly, PP can sell 50K+ watches annually at high prices because their brand also has big demand

note that I'm not commenting on history/quality/finishing at all. All I'm saying is that while the brands can choose their own quality & price points, the market will dictate how much product they can sell and whether that product will hold its value

[Class_first]

thanks guys for commenting, I didnt actually expect anything great in terms of insightful comparisons between PP and VC, for instance why VC might refuse to do marketin at a scale like PP - etc.... the trolling Allegation was a matter of time so let's leave this to rest...

[KarlS]

Originally Posted by Class_first

thanks guys for commenting, I didnt actually expect anything great in terms of insightful comparisons between PP and VC, for instance why VC might refuse to do marketin at a scale like PP - etc.... the trolling Allegation was a matter of time so let's leave this to rest...

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthre...77#post7849777

[lapince]

1 simple answer, design and the number of different pieces in production, Patek explodes VC on these 2 levels, more than 200 models in the catalog if I am not mistaken, but VC is a great brand, more for older people IMHO...

[texex91]

Originally Posted by lapince

1 simple answer, design and the number of different pieces in production, Patek explodes VC on these 2 levels, more than 200 models in the catalog if I am not mistaken, but VC is a great brand, more for older people IMHO...

Who is Patek for...millennials?

[lapince]

Oh and buy a VC, sell it, you'll be lucky if you get back 40% of MRSP, but hey if you prefer VC go for it, most here prefer PP

[lapince]

Originally Posted by texex91

Who is Patek for...millennials?

Well with the now different Aquanauts, sure, why not

[benlee]

Originally Posted by Class_first

thanks guys for commenting, I didnt actually expect anything great in terms of insightful comparisons between PP and VC, for instance why VC might refuse to do marketin at a scale like PP - etc.... the trolling Allegation was a matter of time so let's leave this to rest...

Might have something to do with your opening post that carries a perceived overtly negative tone towards PP. As ours have said, exclusivity is a balance of desirability and supply. I will say PP are more high profile and desirable. Anyway, there are plenty of threads in the past to compare PP vs <insert brand> including VC. I own a PP but no plans to acquire any VC at the moment. I don't think any of their models particular stand out for me.

Originally Posted by lapince

Well with the now different Aquanauts, sure, why not

Nautilus is actually very popular among the younger crowd in our part of the world.

[dmash]

as a side note, the whole 'owned by Richemont' thing will probably be brought up. That doesn't affect their credibility in any way. Some try to say they are 'inferior' because of this. That puts ALS under that 'inferior' umbrella too. Utter ridiculousness IMO.

VC makes some fantastic time pieces......but as a whole, I don't like a lot of the brand. However, the Patrimony small seconds (as I've mentioned in many other threads) is one of the best dress watches on the market in my eyes. The movement is fantastic too.

[subtona]

Interesting post.

It sounds to me like you have an axe to grind with Patek and a reason to pump up VC?

The nautilus for example, is being knocked for glare in the crystal? I have owned one and I have never considered the glare as an owner. For me the VC counterpart missed the mark that the 5711 owned. The VC / Genta piece is barely on the radar of the watch collectors I follow. The debate is commonly only between the AP and Patek.

As far as limiting production, the only piece vacheron makes that intrigues me is their recent gray dial lemania chrono... guess what? I can't get one, it's not available.

My 2¢

[beshannon]

Originally Posted by benlee

Might have something to do with your opening post that carries a perceived overtly negative tone towards PP.

I wanted to reply but that was my feeling as well

[improviz]

Originally Posted by lapince

Oh and buy a VC, sell it, you'll be lucky if you get back 40% of MRSP, but hey if you prefer VC go for it, most here prefer PP

As with any watch, buying right is always the key. You can get excellent deals on BNIB VCs, so dollar hit from depreciation (if you're the sort that flips a lot, I'm not) won't be bad. Personally not a fan of the PP sports watches, I like the AP stuff's look better (and the VCO as well) but to each his own.

[lapince]

Originally Posted by improviz

As with any watch, buying right is always the key. You can get excellent deals on BNIB VCs, so dollar hit from depreciation (if you're the sort that flips a lot, I'm not) won't be bad. Personally not a fan of the PP sports watches, I like the AP stuff's look better (and the VCO as well) but to each his own.

I agree, get what you like, but better buy VC second hand if ever you flip it, not the case with PP and AP, at least the sporty models from AP and more from PP

[improviz]

AP, with few notable exceptions, sell for much less than MSRP preowned. Ex) ROO Panda, easily had in the 15.5K range preowned, MSRP was 26.5K if I remember correctly. That's a 42% drop from MSRP, so it's not like these things are free to own. But people don't pay full MSRP for them unless they're not in the know, so loss is not going to be from MSRP, it'll be (price you bought it for - price you sell it for). Buy right, as I said in previous post..

Anyway, pert near every watch out there depreciates. There are a few very rare notable exceptions, i.e. the Nautilus; but while I can appreciate elements of its design and the finishing, the TV screen-style dial is just not to my tastes, I prefer the round/octagonal look of the AP.

As to my VC: I got it BNIB at a great price, close to what they sell for preowned. Even if it should fall below the current price point, I am not going to go jump off a building if I lose a thousand or two on a watch should I ever decide to sell it. Are you? Why is it people always act about accountants when it comes to this hobby? My AMG loses far more than that in a year, should I sell it and get a Honda Accord because it depreciates less? Of course not.

There is more to this than dollars and cents.

I mean, if you really want to base your choices on relative loss from MSRP, you'd get an SS Daytona and call it a day, no?