Fake 1665

[offrdmania]

Seller states that most of the parts are "custom" which we all know is eBay code for fake. This is my favorite line LOL "- Dial: has been professional repainted with Swiss ink"

Reported!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Rol...YAAOSwkrFaTz8J

[tamiya]

Here's a closer look at Swiss ink
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Rol...l/173077932814

Did u notice seller's name??

Seller : dung_chrono (1198 ) 99.2% Positive feedback

I giggled

[watchluvr]

Reported

[GLADIATOR]

Originally Posted by watchluvr

Reported

What actually did you report?
Seller states nearly all is custom EXCEPT the movement, and movement "may" be genuine - impossible to really see from those pictures.

The rest is junk, but he states its all custom!

[offrdmania]

I reported it the same way I would a fake replica. The case is fake and it says Rolex on the case back so its a fake regardless of if the movement may be real.

[GLADIATOR]

Originally Posted by offrdmania

I reported it the same way I would a fake replica. The case is fake and it says Rolex on the case back so its a fake regardless of if the movement may be real.

Yes, you may be right
BUT
Seller clearly states what he is selling.
Its a FRANKEN
Its up to the buyers to decide

a

[offrdmania]

Originally Posted by GLADIATOR

Yes, you may be right
BUT
Seller clearly states what he is selling.
Its a FRANKEN
Its up to the buyers to decide

a

It says Rolex, it has a serial number but was never produced by Rolex. You are ok with that is what you are telling me? I dont get it...

[GLADIATOR]

Originally Posted by offrdmania

It says Rolex, it has a serial number but was never produced by Rolex. You are ok with that is what you are telling me? I dont get it...

I personally report counterfeit watch (all fake) when people may be duped.

I (personally) dont report Frankenstein especially if movement is genuine and seller is making it clear.

But that just me

A

[freefly]

Originally Posted by GLADIATOR

Yes, you may be right
BUT
Seller clearly states what he is selling.
Its a FRANKEN
Its up to the buyers to decide

a

A FRANKEN is a watch that is put together using non-original (but still authentic) AND/OR aftermarket (but no counterfeit) parts. Big distinction there, IMO.

The watch above features a Rolex-marked COUNTERFEIT dial, case, case-back, and bracelet. The only potential authentic thing there is the movement, which may be franken'd, and MAYBE the winding crown.

Further, that seller is a habitual offender who has been the subject of multiple reports here previously.

[GLADIATOR]

Originally Posted by freefly

No, a FRANKEN is a watch that is put together using non-original (but still authentic) AND/OR aftermarket (but no counterfeit) parts. Big distinction there, IMO.

:

Well we can agree to disagree - no issue
A FRANKEN watch is made up of parts never originally made by that manufacturer.
i.e a custom dial, and/or a custom case, but an original movement

I think you describe a marriage watch - a piece made up all of original parts from the same manufacturer but NEVER put together in that combination.

[run23]

Not quite sure what the problem is here. He's pretty clear this is a franken-watch with a collection of various parts and a repainted dial. Although I do get fakes and misrepresented watches are a serious problem, Rolex people seemed to get pretty worked up over anyone messing around with a Rolex. I mean I've seen posts on the forums where someone puts an aftermarket bracelet on a Rolex and people scream FAKE.

[milov]

There may be a difference between an eBay seller who who discloses that the watch s/he is selling is counterfeit and one who does not.

But selling a counterfeit product is still not allowed on eBay regardless.

Taking into account that the disclosed counterfeit watch might then be resold as genuine I choose to report all counterfeits. If the seller wants to sell a Franken-watch then they are free to, providing they remove all labels and emblems.

IMHO.

[run23]

Originally Posted by milov

There may be a difference between an eBay seller who who discloses that the watch s/he is selling is counterfeit and one who does not.

But selling a counterfeit product is still not allowed on eBay regardless.

Taking into account that the disclosed counterfeit watch might then be resold as genuine I choose to report all counterfeits. If the seller wants to sell a Franken-watch then they are free to, providing they remove all labels and emblems.

IMHO.

But the watch isn’t counterfeit, that’s where we disagree. If someone buys a junked up 1957 Mustang and redoes it with various aftermarket parts and resells he isn’t selling a counterfeit car. Why should a watch be any different? Someone is perfectly within their rights to take an old omega watch case, take an old Rolex dial and an old Longines movement, touch it up to look fresh and sell as some sort of franken beast, as long as what is being sold isn’t misrepresented.

I do get that once these enter the market place someone else could turn around and try to sell as authentic, but that’s why buyers need to be diligent.

[milov]

Still my humble opinion, but if someone other than the genuine manufacturer has put an emblem, logo or label on a product then it is a counterfeit.

And the only reason this watch has Sea-Dweller and Rolex labels is to make it appear as genuine.

[run23]

Originally Posted by milov

Still my humble opinion, but if someone other than the genuine manufacturer has put an emblem, logo or label on a product then it is a counterfeit.

And the only reason this watch has Sea-Dweller and Rolex labels is to make it appear as genuine.

But by definition to be counterfeit you need to be attempting to deceive or defraud, which isn’t the case here. Watches are modded all the time with approval from watch enthusiasts, cars are restored and modified all the time, clothes with designer labels are modified all the time and resold, but for some reason people think there is something special about Rolex where any modification is somehow immoral/wrong or whatever. I do get that there can be a concern about later sales without disclosure, but that is true of any product that is modified.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by run23

But by definition to be counterfeit you need to be attempting to deceive or defraud, which isn’t the case here. Watches are modded all the time with approval from watch enthusiasts, cars are restored and modified all the time, clothes with designer labels are modified all the time and resold, but for some reason people think there is something special about Rolex where any modification is somehow immoral/wrong or whatever. I do get that there can be a concern about later sales without disclosure, but that is true of any product that is modified.

If the parts weren’t made byRolex, but are labeled or marked with Rolex markings, the parts are counterfeit. The faker didn’t license the parts through Rolex and is intending to profit on Rolex name. That’s a crime in most countries. To your car analogy, this would be like faking the VIN number and badges on a car to claim it’s a BMW and not an inexpensive Asian import.

A Franken is Rolex parts that didn’t come with the watch, assembled to change the appearance of the watch. It’s still all Rolex. An original dial that is refinished is still an original part, but should be identified as refinished by the seller. A vapor deposition coating on an original watch is still a Rolex, etc.

A custom uses aftermarket parts that aren’t labeled Rolex (eg bracelets, crystals, and diamond bezels).

A fake uses counterfeit parts labeled Rolex. If the seller doesn’t state that the parts are replicas he is intentionally misrepresenting the watch (fraud).

[Andad]

This '1665' as presented by the seller was not made by Rolex?

But this seems to be acceptable by some?

If it went to a RSC for a service what would be the result?

[run23]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

If the parts weren’t made byRolex, but are labeled or marked with Rolex markings, the parts are counterfeit.

Totally agree for parts are labeled Rolex but aren’t.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by run23

Totally agree for parts are labeled Rolex but aren’t.

This ad is for a Sea Dweller 1665. The ad states the case is a replica. The only thing claimed Rolex manufacture is the movement, yet the dial, crown, and bracelet all have Rolex coronets. There are enough counterfeit parts trying to imply the watch is real Rolex to make it deceptive at best, and a fraud at worst.

[watchluvr]

http://ebay.to/2m4KVy6

Custom bracelet with Rolex coronet on it and Rolex logo. Trademark infringment.

Custom case with the word Rolex, Oyster Perpetual, and the Rolex coronet on it. Trademark infringement.

This guy has been selling counterfeit dials claimed to be "refinished" for quite awhile now. Trademark infringement.

The serial number is fake and would not coordinate with anything in Rolex's records. Faking or altering serial numbers is a criminal offense.

This is a watch that is built to deceive and could be sold by the buyer to an unsuspecting client for a tremendous net.

When a future owner finds out the hard way that the watch is all fake except the movement, it hurts the vintage Rolex market and people could get charged with crimes.

I am choosing to report it. A "custom" case should be a genuine case with maybe some engraving on it or pvd or dlc coated. It should not be made in a factory in China or Vietnam.

The hands are also not genuine because they match the patina so nicely on the refinished dial.

A lot of trademark infringement... Equals counterfeit. Equals Reported.

[run23]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

This ad is for a Sea Dweller 1665. The ad states the case is a replica. The only thing claimed Rolex manufacture is the movement, yet the dial, crown, and bracelet all have Rolex coronets. There are enough counterfeit parts trying to imply the watch is real Rolex to make it deceptive at best, and a fraud at worst.

Looked at again. I don’t see any counterfeit parts. It looks like he repainted the dial. Guy got a bunch of different parts and stuck them together and is trying to sell it. So what. If someone took a 1962 telecaster with aftermarket pickups and electronics, different hardware etc. people wouldn’t be losing their minds and screaming counterfeit.

http://yahoobuckaroo.blogspot.com/20...elecaster.html

http://www.mustangandfords.com/featu...u-have-to-see/

I don’t know of any other brand where people get so touchy about rebuilds and modifications. I guess I don’t get Rolex enthusiasts, even though I’m a fan of the brand myself.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by run23

Looked at again. I don’t see any counterfeit parts. It looks like he repainted the dial. Guy got a bunch of different parts and stuck them together and is trying to sell it. So what. If someone took a 1962 telecaster with aftermarket pickups and electronics, different hardware etc. people wouldn’t be losing their minds and screaming counterfeit.

http://yahoobuckaroo.blogspot.com/20...elecaster.html

http://www.mustangandfords.com/featu...u-have-to-see/

I don’t know of any other brand where people get so touchy about rebuilds and modifications. I guess I don’t get Rolex enthusiasts, even though I’m a fan of the brand myself.

The parts he calls custom have coronets on them. That makes them counterfeit. He says the dial is repainted with Swiss ink (whatever that means). This watch is loaded with fake Rolex parts and is intended to deceive a buyer.

I don’t know why people think it’s OK to trade off someone else’s trademark.

[watchluvr]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

The parts he calls custom have coronets on them. That makes them counterfeit. He says the dial is repainted with Swiss ink (whatever that means). This watch is loaded with fake Rolex parts and is intended to deceive a buyer.

I don’t know why people think it’s OK to trade off someone else’s trademark.

[run23]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

The parts he calls custom have coronets on them. That makes them counterfeit. He says the dial is repainted with Swiss ink (whatever that means). This watch is loaded with fake Rolex parts and is intended to deceive a buyer.



I don’t know why people think it’s OK to trade off someone else’s trademark.

Rolex enthusiasts have to me a bizarre protective instinct over the brand which I’ll never understand. In every other hobby and with every other brand taking old parts and restoring items, even if they are franken items and even if it’s restoring old faded logos, is considered a fun hobby. To Rolex people this is some sort of criminal activity where if you put an aftermarket bracelet on a watch the watch somehow becomes a counterfeit (I had someone tell me on a forum that my watch was now fake because I put non-Rolex clasp on my bracelet to test out a new clasp), let alone non-Rolex hands or something like that. You guys should definitely stay away from the vintage guitar and car worlds or your heads may explode.

To each his own I guess.

[GradyPhilpott]

Do we really need all this bickering?

The watch is questionable at best and ebay has a "Report Item" feature to encourage people to report questionable items.

I don't recommend being irresponsible, but when there is a reasonable suspicion that a listing is in violation of the rules, giving ebay a heads-up seems to be a reasonable response.

If a member posts such a thread as this, then one can either report the listing or ignore the thread completely.

This particular one is too complicated for me to pass judgement, so I'm abstaining.

I'm glad this thread was posted, because it has given me a little more knowledge about what a minefield online watch buying can be.

[Fredrik]

Originally Posted by run23

Rolex enthusiasts have to me a bizarre protective instinct over the brand which I’ll never understand. In every other hobby and with every other brand taking old parts and restoring items, even if they are franken items and even if it’s restoring old faded logos, is considered a fun hobby. To Rolex people this is some sort of criminal activity where if you put an aftermarket bracelet on a watch the watch somehow becomes a counterfeit (I had someone tell me on a forum that my watch was now fake because I put non-Rolex clasp on my bracelet to test out a new clasp), let alone non-Rolex hands or something like that. You guys should definitely stay away from the vintage guitar and car worlds or your heads may explode.

To use a car analogy, in this particular case someone took an engine and build a complete new car around it with made up VIN. In the guitar world it is like taking an old Gibson pickup and build a new guitar around it.

[watchluvr]

Originally Posted by GLADIATOR

I personally report counterfeit watch (all fake) when people may be duped.

I (personally) dont report Frankenstein especially if movement is genuine and seller is making it clear.

But that just me

A

I understand your position, but if someone says a watch or case or dial or band that is a clone, replica, or "custom" that is virtually identical to the real thing and if it is branded just like the real thing, then it is just the seller's choice to use the word "custom" to try to sneak by rules against selling a replica, fake, clone, or counterfeit.

One could easily say about any "replica" or "clone" on the market that the watch has a custom case, custom bracelet, etc.

All of those items are illegal in the U.S., and google news shows plenty of stories of people being arrested and charged with crimes for selling replicas, clones, etc. They are all considered counterfeits if they use the trademark of Rolex, etc. without permission from Rolex.

If someone can be arrested for selling a watch with a counterfeit trademark, it makes no difference if they refer to it as a replica, clone, or custom. It is still a violation of law and ebay and craigslist rules.

If someone put a 1575 movement into a Franck Muller style case and made a completely unique dial with a different name brand on it that only the watch maker uses, then that would be a true custom watch with a Rolex movement. But if the custom case and bracelet look virtually identical to a Rolex and they are marked Rolex, then it is trademark counterfeiting.

In summary, I believe that the word "custom" is simply a way to avoid having the item kicked off ebay. The words "replica," "clone," or "fake" could just as easily be used. So on a watch that you can easily imagine replacing "custom" with "clone," "fake," or "replica," I believe it should be reported and removed. The seller is trying to pull an end around and trying to be sneaky about breaking the rules.

This is only my opinion, but it coincides with U.S. law and trademark counterfeiting laws in most states in the U.S.

[JZD]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

The parts he calls custom have coronets on them. That makes them counterfeit. He says the dial is repainted with Swiss ink (whatever that means). This watch is loaded with fake Rolex parts and is intended to deceive a buyer.

I don’t know why people think it’s OK to trade off someone else’s trademark.

Exactly. Calling something custom or homage doesn’t give one the right to infringe on another’s intellectual property. This watch is being marketed as a Sea-Dweller. Only Rolex can make a Sea-Dweller. Rolex did not make this watch, so it is not a Sea-Dweller. Period.

[GLADIATOR]

Originally Posted by JZD

Exactly. Calling something custom or homage doesn’t give one the right to infringe on another’s intellectual property. This watch is being marketed as a Sea-Dweller. Only Rolex can make a Sea-Dweller. Rolex did not make this watch, so it is not a Sea-Dweller. Period.

So does that make every watch with an aftermarket dial - COUNTERFEIT.

I absolutely understand and agree your point - its infringing on another persons intellectual property or trademark.

The difference to me (anyway) is this seller is not trying to dupe anyone, and his description is clear for all to understand.

Its hard enough trying to catch and stop the ones totally out to cheat and deceive.
This guy at least is not doing that

[milov]

I feel that this seller is dishonest. S/He has a access to a factory churning out counterfeit parts and his/her business is selling them on eBay.

Would you pay 4K for this watch? I wouldn't. And whoever is bidding on this watch is being duped.

Ethics aside, this seller is breaking eBay's rules. And should be reported.