MilSub sighting in the wild

[NoCokeNoHope]

I was on the shuttle bus to BOS airport yesterday and the gentleman that sat across me has a very nice looking vintage Rolex. I couldn’t help but stare and I saw SWORD HANDS! First time in my life seeing a MilSub in flesh. I waited for him to get off his phone and complimented his watch. He was a bit surprised but was extremely nice and offered to take off the MilSub for me to look. Too bad I had to jump off and we exchanged number and snapped a wrist shot.

5513 or 5517?




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[Andrejb]

Originally Posted by NoCokeNoHope

I was on the shuttle bus to BOS airport yesterday and the gentleman that sat across me has a very nice looking vintage Rolex. I couldn’t help but stare and I saw SWORD HANDS! First time in my life seeing a MilSub in flesh. I waited for him to get off his phone and complimented his watch. He was a bit surprised but was extremely nice and offered to take off the MilSub for me to look. Too bad I had to jump off and we exchanged number and snapped a wrist shot.

5513 or 5517?




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So cool


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[NoCokeNoHope]

Originally Posted by Andrejb

So cool


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I’ve only saw it in some Japanese vintage Rolex magazines. The 60 Insert is a killer.


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[albaserver]

I would like to see it in a very close picture. At that distance, the insert does not look like as it should be...

Anyway it's a great sighting! Many congrats!!

[Haywood_Milton]

Look how short his seconds hand is.

Here is a close-up of one of mine:



I don't think I like the other hands, the insert, the dial....

You have his number. Would he mind sharing some close-ups, I wonder?

Haywood

[dysondiver]

crown guards look odd , maybe its just the angle , or my phone screen , or is the crown unscrewed a wee bit

[Thuilln]

Maybe not so cool after all.

[albaserver]

Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Look how short his seconds hand is.

Here is a close-up of one of mine:

https://i.imgur.com/RA9tXQY.jpg

I don't think I like the other hands, the insert, the dial....

You have his number. Would he mind sharing some close-ups, I wonder?

Haywood

Originally Posted by dysondiver

crown guards look odd , maybe its just the angle , or my phone screen , or is the crown unscrewed a wee bit

Sorry but I think the same... We could be more accurate with better pictures.

[1675-David]

I wouldn't pay rolex money for that watch looking at the dial and what can be seen of the case.

[NoCokeNoHope]

Unfortunately the whole encounter was less than a few minutes and that’s the only picture I could snapped by my phone. But if Haywood see this odd then it is odd.
Bummer, I thought I saw “the” unicorn.
Thank you everyone.


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[Tomas Eriksson]

It is superfake... Serif index. Lugholes?! The bezel is fake. The hands, fake...

[Andrejb]

Bummer


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[MP5]

That strap should have given it away

[brandrea]

Sorry but I’m not offering to take off my watch on a shuttle and hand it over to a stranger

Cool encounter tho

[KateB]

wow I've never heard of a MilSub before.


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[dysondiver]

Originally Posted by KateB

wow I've never heard of a MilSub before.


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google 5517 ,,,, start reading ,,, and dreaming

[KateB]

Originally Posted by dysondiver

google 5517 ,,,, start reading ,,, and dreaming

Thank you .
Just started reading it on Philips... I almost dropped my tea when I saw their estimates. Too many 0s...

[05carbondrz]

Looks phony to me too....Why be a Poser?

[dysondiver]

Originally Posted by KateB

Thank you .
Just started reading it on Philips... I almost dropped my tea when I saw their estimates. Too many 0s...

i once had two in my office draw ,,, and could have bought them both for 32 pounds sterling , each
but thats another story .

[KateB]

Originally Posted by dysondiver

i once had two in my office draw ,,, and could have bought them both for 32 pounds sterling , each

but thats another story .

that's like having gold coins (a lot of gold coins!) in the drawer.....

I just read on Bob's watches that there are only 1200 of these issued!? No wonder OP calls it a unicorn.

Hope OP you won't get roasted too much for not spotting a fake vintage.

[rangel23]

Originally Posted by MP5

That strap should have given it away

Why would the strap be a giveaway? Don’t people often wear natos on subs? What am I missing?

[Beelzy]

Originally Posted by rangel23

Why would the strap be a giveaway? Don’t people often wear natos on subs? What am I missing?

It's on a Zulu strap. That's why. Lol

[strafer_kid]

Originally Posted by Beelzy

It's on a Zulu strap. That's why. Lol

Would a Zulu still not fit?

[Haywood_Milton]

Originally Posted by KateB

I just read on Bob's watches that there are only 1200 of these issued!? No wonder OP calls it a unicorn.

Bob's watches are perhaps "recycling" the early research into case numbers which I did on these watches.

Yes, nearly twenty years ago I first published my findings that case number ranges from which the "classic" c.1970 mil sub 5513 ~ 5517 models were drawn do indeed encompass a total of perhaps 1,250 possible numbers.



Even if all of these numbers were used (which might not be the case), case-back issue numbers would lead us reasonably to conclude that perhaps not more than a thousand were actually issued.



So, numbers were already fewer than you might have thought.

Then let us consider how many were lost or damaged in service, or while RN Clearance Divers were playing "conkers" with them against poor saps holding a Seamaster on a NATO strap, in a bar on the South coast of England.

Finally, let us consider how many were bought cheap from surplus stores like Motosail in Weymouth ("pick any from the tray for £50 mate") only to be "civilianised" for profit, losing their sword hands, bezels and fixed bars.

A military issue Submariner in anything like its original form is an exceptional piece. Most now sit with long-term owners and fewer seem to be emerging.



Then again, just when you think something is rare...



Start dividing mil subs into types (5513, double reference, 5517, with 0552 or W10 issue numbers) and there will always be just one more to find. There are certainly a number of different dial variants...



...but is there really more than one type of sword second hand?

There is a great deal to learn about military issue Rolex. Much has been researched and reasonably concluded, much that is published on the internet is poppycock, while some of us are trying to fill in the gaps or hold little nuggets of information about unique watches / tiny batches. As so often with Rolex, time, effort and diligence may bring some reward!

Military issue "HALO" 16600s? A 1665? The A/6538s and two small batches of c.1960 5512s? The contemporary H.S. Explorers? The subject of mil subs expands further than you might first expect.

A bit of fun to finish. I see thousands of Rolex every year and some time ago one of my shops bought a plain old Datejust from its original owner, in this box.



Other, similar boxes with 5517 stickers had turned up --- all of which had slightly different printing and none of which I believed to be genuine. I have particular reason to believe that this one, which I retain, is a genuine 5517 box. At the very recent "Issued 3" event it was lovely to hear that another collector, formerly doubtful that they existed, had been speaking with an ex-serviceman who clearly remembered Submariners being issued from a pile of such boxes in the stores. Certainly, many mil subs did NOT have boxes, simply being delivered to naval dockyards in Mr. Hudson's boot (what the colonials call a "trunk," I think) but further evidence to support the existence of genuine mil sub boxes was pleasing!

Haywood

[GeoGio Greece]

[NoCokeNoHope]

Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Bob's watches are perhaps "recycling" the early research into case numbers which I did on these watches.

Yes, nearly twenty years ago I first published my findings that case number ranges from which the "classic" c.1970 mil sub 5513 ~ 5517 models were drawn do indeed encompass a total of perhaps 1,250 possible numbers.



Even if all of these numbers were used (which might not be the case), case-back issue numbers would lead us reasonably to conclude that perhaps not more than a thousand were actually issued.



So, numbers were already fewer than you might have thought.

Then let us consider how many were lost or damaged in service, or while RN Clearance Divers were playing "conkers" with them against poor saps holding a Seamaster on a NATO strap, in a bar on the South coast of England.

Finally, let us consider how many were bought cheap from surplus stores like Motosail in Weymouth ("pick any from the tray for £50 mate") only to be "civilianised" for profit, losing their sword hands, bezels and fixed bars.

A military issue Submariner in anything like its original form is an exceptional piece. Most now sit with long-term owners and fewer seem to be emerging.



Then again, just when you think something is rare...



Start dividing mil subs into types (5513, double reference, 5517, with 0552 or W10 issue numbers) and there will always be just one more to find. There are certainly a number of different dial variants...



...but is there really more than one type of sword second hand?

There is a great deal to learn about military issue Rolex. Much has been researched and reasonably concluded, much that is published on the internet is poppycock, while some of us are trying to fill in the gaps or hold little nuggets of information about unique watches / tiny batches. As so often with Rolex, time, effort and diligence may bring some reward!

Military issue "HALO" 16600s? A 1665? The A/6538s and two small batches of c.1960 5512s? The contemporary H.S. Explorers? The subject of mil subs expands further than you might first expect.

A bit of fun to finish. I see thousands of Rolex every year and some time ago one of my shops bought a plain old Datejust from its original owner, in this box.



Other, similar boxes with 5517 stickers had turned up --- all of which had slightly different printing and none of which I believed to be genuine. I have particular reason to believe that this one, which I retain, is a genuine 5517 box. At the very recent "Issued 3" event it was lovely to hear that another collector, formerly doubtful that they existed, had been speaking with an ex-serviceman who clearly remembered Submariners being issued from a pile of such boxes in the stores. Certainly, many mil subs did NOT have boxes, simply being delivered to naval dockyards in Mr. Hudson's boot (what the colonials call a "trunk," I think) but further evidence to support the existence of genuine mil sub boxes was pleasing!

Haywood

That’s an amazing write up Mr Haywood! Thank you sharing your Incredible knowledge and history.

The world and future generations of Rolex Collectors owe this to you.

Originally Posted by KateB

Hope OP you won't get roasted too much for not spotting a fake vintage.

Trust me. I’ve done a lot worse before. Any Roasting is well deserved. But If my stupidity could drawn the bits of knowledge from the legendary collectors that spoke, why not then

[MP5]

Originally Posted by strafer_kid

Would a Zulu still not fit?

This pic should give you all the info you need why.

[KateB]

Originally Posted by Haywood_Milton

Bob's watches are perhaps "recycling" the early research into case numbers which I did on these watches.

Yes, nearly twenty years ago I first published my findings that case number ranges from which the "classic" c.1970 mil sub 5513 ~ 5517 models were drawn do indeed encompass a total of perhaps 1,250 possible numbers.



Even if all of these numbers were used (which might not be the case), case-back issue numbers would lead us reasonably to conclude that perhaps not more than a thousand were actually issued.



So, numbers were already fewer than you might have thought.

Then let us consider how many were lost or damaged in service, or while RN Clearance Divers were playing "conkers" with them against poor saps holding a Seamaster on a NATO strap, in a bar on the South coast of England.

Finally, let us consider how many were bought cheap from surplus stores like Motosail in Weymouth ("pick any from the tray for £50 mate") only to be "civilianised" for profit, losing their sword hands, bezels and fixed bars.

A military issue Submariner in anything like its original form is an exceptional piece. Most now sit with long-term owners and fewer seem to be emerging.



Then again, just when you think something is rare...



Start dividing mil subs into types (5513, double reference, 5517, with 0552 or W10 issue numbers) and there will always be just one more to find. There are certainly a number of different dial variants...



...but is there really more than one type of sword second hand?

There is a great deal to learn about military issue Rolex. Much has been researched and reasonably concluded, much that is published on the internet is poppycock, while some of us are trying to fill in the gaps or hold little nuggets of information about unique watches / tiny batches. As so often with Rolex, time, effort and diligence may bring some reward!

Military issue "HALO" 16600s? A 1665? The A/6538s and two small batches of c.1960 5512s? The contemporary H.S. Explorers? The subject of mil subs expands further than you might first expect.

A bit of fun to finish. I see thousands of Rolex every year and some time ago one of my shops bought a plain old Datejust from its original owner, in this box.



Other, similar boxes with 5517 stickers had turned up --- all of which had slightly different printing and none of which I believed to be genuine. I have particular reason to believe that this one, which I retain, is a genuine 5517 box. At the very recent "Issued 3" event it was lovely to hear that another collector, formerly doubtful that they existed, had been speaking with an ex-serviceman who clearly remembered Submariners being issued from a pile of such boxes in the stores. Certainly, many mil subs did NOT have boxes, simply being delivered to naval dockyards in Mr. Hudson's boot (what the colonials call a "trunk," I think) but further evidence to support the existence of genuine mil sub boxes was pleasing!

Haywood

Sir you collection is
OH. MY. GOD.

I cannot think right now...

This thread has turned into a true treasure!

I have been quite obsessed with the MilSub and have spent my entire day reading about it and searching for pictures of it. Such a rich history but little know about the MilSub...just when I thought I have reached the end of the Internet and have read everything out there...your post is a million times richer in information value!

I am quite embarrassed to say I spent a good few hours staring at the pictures and still could not tell the difference other than the shorter second hand.... please don't give away the answer ...yet... I want to find it myself... someday....





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[KateB]

Originally Posted by MP5

This pic should give you all the info you need why.

Sir may I try?
Is it because it is British military watch so only a G10 NATO strap would be appropriate ?

AP

[jfmiii]

you have no idea how good fake vintage parts have become (especially dials originating from Vietnam). this isnt even a particularly good fake. here is an example. this watch is FAKE. fake dial, fake case, fake hands, fake bezel. it does, however, have a real cal 1520 in it.