Meters First Red Submariner

[ksing]

Hello everyone,

I'd like to ask your thoughts and know the general opinion from TRF members regarding the "meters-first" red submariner. They go for quite a premium price in comparison to the feet-first red subs. If I'm correct, the meters-first are MK1,2,3 and are much rarer compared to the later dials with feet-first(?).

I don't own a vintage submariner yet, but personally I love the meters-first red subs because I believe there are very rare compared to feet-first and many of the meters-first dials were changed out during service? Also from a lot of photos I've seen of the meters-first they have a very nice brown tropical dial (some dark brown and some lighter depending on the watch).

I would love to hear your thoughts on this and to know if people would be willing to pay the premium for a meters-first. I know condition also matters so in this case lets assume the meters-first and feet-first are in similar condition.

Thank you all in advance!

[omitohud]

I sure did. N I assume most collectors would, otherwise no one would pay the extra premium put on meter first. Red sub in general is very popular. The rarity of meter first puts it on top.


I blame it on autoconnect.

[ksing]

Originally Posted by omitohud

I sure did. N I assume most collectors would, otherwise no one would pay the extra premium put on meter first. Red sub in general is very popular. The rarity of meter first puts it on top.


I blame it on autoconnect.

I agree. Would love to have a meter-first red sub someday.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by ksing

Hello everyone,

I'd like to ask your thoughts and know the general opinion from TRF members regarding the "meters-first" red submariner. They go for quite a premium price in comparison to the feet-first red subs. If I'm correct, the meters-first are MK1,2,3 and are much rarer compared to the later dials with feet-first(?).

I don't own a vintage submariner yet, but personally I love the meters-first red subs because I believe there are very rare compared to feet-first and many of the meters-first dials were changed out during service? Also from a lot of photos I've seen of the meters-first they have a very nice brown tropical dial (some dark brown and some lighter depending on the watch).

I would love to hear your thoughts on this and to know if people would be willing to pay the premium for a meters-first. I know condition also matters so in this case lets assume the meters-first and feet-first are in similar condition.

Thank you all in advance!

allow me to point out a fact before my opinion. Yes the MF red 1680's go for a premium compared to FF..

Would I pay that premium for MF on the dial? No, personally I would not. The only way i would ever pay a premium on a MF is if it were tropical.

It's a toss up around TRF, some would not find the importance to spend a couple grand more on a MF and some would.

I do think with the current market and how crazy the prices have gotten, the MF and FF examples are going to continue to get a little closer in price. Almost like what happened to the DRSD. Will a red 1680 FF ever be the same value as a MF variant? Probably not.

I also feel the more that time passes, the more newer and younger collectors get into the vintage game, many of those newer collectors would not pay the premium, which also dilutes the premium some. But with all that being said, buy what you fancy.

[ksing]

Originally Posted by SubKing

allow me to point out a fact before my opinion. Yes the MF red 1680's go for a premium compared to FF..

Would I pay that premium for MF on the dial? No, personally I would not. The only way i would ever pay a premium on a MF is if it were tropical.

It's a toss up around TRF, some would not find the importance to spend a couple grand more on a MF and some would.

I do think with the current market and how crazy the prices have gotten, the MF and FF examples are going to continue to get a little closer in price. Almost like what happened to the DRSD. Will a red 1680 FF ever be the same value as a MF variant? Probably not.

I also feel the more that time passes, the more newer and younger collectors get into the vintage game, many of those newer collectors would not pay the premium, which also dilutes the premium some. But with all that being said, buy what you fancy.

But the meter-first have the rare element that feet-first doesn't have right? The newer and younger collectors are still paying the premium for say a 4-line zenith or inverted 6, compared to a later mk zenith daytonas aren't they? Prices for the same reference of a 4 digit daytona or vintage GMTs also vary a lot depending on the smallest of difference on the dial and the different mks. So I assume it should be the same for submariners? Personally I can't buy a vintage submariner yet, but when I can I would definitely try to buy the meters-first for its rarity.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by ksing

But the meter-first have the rare element that feet-first doesn't have right? The newer and younger collectors are still paying the premium for say a 4-line zenith or inverted 6, compared to a later mk zenith daytonas aren't they? Prices for the same reference of a 4 digit daytona or vintage GMTs also vary a lot depending on the smallest of difference on the dial and the different mks. So I assume it should be the same for submariners? Personally I can't buy a vintage submariner yet, but when I can I would definitely try to buy the meters-first for its rarity.

You cannot compare other models to a red submariner.. If you are wondering about a red sub and the variants then you have to stick to that.

I could easily use the 5513 as an example. MF and FF go for the same price. There is no premium for a matte dialed MF compared to a FF submariner 5513...

I notice you keep using the term "rarity"...

Red subs in general are rare. Did they make slightly less MF? Yes they did.. However, they are not as rare as you think when compared to FF reds.

A chocolate dialed MF is rare. Finding a vintage sub in mint condition in general is rare.

i think once you get more into the vintage game, you will see the market is filled with more junk than quality examples. To find quality and originality is rare.
That's my 2 cents.

[mattedialdoc]

Unsolicited advice: I would focus more on “condition” versus perceived “rarity”. And buy what makes you happy to look at.

To me it’s like when guys come on here and ask “what should I buy that’s gonna be worth more later”. Who knows. I have bought stuff because I liked the way it looked versus any other contrived benchmark. And I’ve continued to enjoy the pieces using that criteria.

I may be maturing a little in my collecting, and I feel some of that is relative to this crazy market. Prices are out of control and thank god im not a buyer these days. Well, unless it’s a great deal!!!


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Instagram: @mattedialdoc

[swish77]

Strongly agree with the above comments. MF dials do nothing for me over FF dials. I find it silly hype originally perpetuated by dealers, and I've been saying it for years. (Tropical dials are a completely different discussion.)

Overall condition is so, so much more important. For example, I'd much rather have a fat case on a FF Sub than a mediocre case on a MF Sub, or a great patina'd FF Sub over a dirty patina'd MF Sub, etc .... This goes for matte 5512/3s and red 1680s.

And as for rarity ... that's only one factor in collecting. There are plenty of "rare" watches/features that are meaningless. All red 1680s are relatively rare, although it's shocking how many you see on the market nowadays. Makes me wonder.

I've owned MF and FF red 1680 Subs and 5512/3s through the years, and that distinction of depth rating seemed insignificant relative to the overall condition of the watch, and certainly not worth a big premium. Just my 2 cents, and I realize others disagree.

[rmlovett1]

Agree with most all points from all the gentleman above..
I personally would only pay a premium, or higher than fair market price, for a truly exceptional condition, complete set, Red Sub....MF or FF. And , as Subking pointed out...I believe these two will continue to get closer in price as time goes on. I’d look for the overall quality of the piece before worrying about MF or FF. I paid, what I consider is a fair price, for my Red Sub... it being a good quality piece from a trusted seller.. A Red Sub for wearing, not a museum piece/safe queen. Do your research, condition of the watch is key, and buy the seller as well.

[scooba]

My 2 Cents, I have a early MK1 RedSub Mtrs first full set , It is special what ever people may think or say it is a lovely watch is it worth more than a FT first thats up to the buyer, Value I paid $22,500 for it four years ago , A couple of friends thought I had lost my mind ,I even started thinking maybe I had , But I actually really like it and still do , Current Market Prices are even more crazy ,Recently I was talking to a member on here who would have given me $40k He is specifically looking for exactly what I have ,I almost sold it but realise to replace it would be almost impossible , It is imho a stunning watch and mine will be 50yrs old next year

If you can find a Good Meters first example I would buy that before the Feet first thats just my opinion , Stephan Medan had a cracker recently ( worldly watches .com ) I would take a look and I think Andrew Shear at sheartime.com has another worth looking at

Mine

http://sheartime.com/products/1969-r...ner-ref-1680-2

[scooba]

A lovely Example

https://www.worldlywatches.com/rolex...red-submariner

[nsxnext]

Originally Posted by scooba

A lovely Example

https://www.worldlywatches.com/rolex...red-submariner

Is there a metal ring around the pearl or just lighting?
Date looks awfully magnified and plexi does not look aligned properly.

[roh123]

Wearability is the same of course but rarity will always differentiate them. I doubt they will develop much differently so the only question is if you want to put more or less money into your watch. There will always be buyers around to pay the premium for a meters first in great condition so I wouldn’t say it is a bad decision to go meters first.

If buying to invest or get something special; go for a great gilt. If just wanting a great matte sub I think red subs in general are overrated and expensive. Best value is buying an early matte 5513 which is considerably cheaper and as much (if not more) fun as a red sub.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by roh123

Wearability is the same of course but rarity will always differentiate them. I doubt they will develop much differently so the only question is if you want to put more or less money into your watch. There will always be buyers around to pay the premium for a meters first in great condition so I wouldn’t say it is a bad decision to go meters first.

If buying to invest or get something special; go for a great gilt. If just wanting a great matte sub I think red subs in general are overrated and expensive. Best value is buying an early matte 5513 which is considerably cheaper and as much (if not more) fun as a red sub.

I have an early matte 5513 and believe me, it's not as much fun as my red sub.

[roh123]

Originally Posted by SubKing

I have an early matte 5513 and believe me, it's not as much fun as my red sub.

Each to their own.

Personally I prefer nodate and a nice superdome t19. That gives me more than one line red text.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by roh123

Each to their own.

Personally I prefer nodate and a nice superdome t19. That gives me more than one line red text.

Ya, well when you have one line of red text and a superdome, it’s game over

[swish77]

Originally Posted by roh123

If buying to invest or get something special; go for a great gilt. If just wanting a great matte sub I think red subs in general are overrated and expensive. Best value is buying an early matte 5513 which is considerably cheaper and as much (if not more) fun as a red sub.

x2. Well said. I'm all about wrist presence, not tiny dial details I can't even really see with my (aging) naked eyes. A line of red is super cool on a dial, of course, but you need to decide if it's worth all the extra money for that. I find a nice white 1680 or 1665, or a matte 5512/13 is all I need to satisfy that wonderful feeling of a cool vintage plexi Sub on my wrist.

Now, gilts are super special too and in a different category. They make more of a "splash" on the wrist than one line of red text, IMHO. I just couldn't ever find one with a clean-enough dial, and now they've gone the way of all super expensive vintage Rolex sports watches. In other words, I waited too long.

[mattedialdoc]

Originally Posted by swish77

x2. Well said. I'm all about wrist presence, not tiny dial details I can't even really see with my (aging) naked eyes. A line of red is super cool on a dial, of course, but you need to decide if it's worth all the extra money for that. I find a nice white 1680 or 1665, or a matte 5512/13 is all I need to satisfy that wonderful feeling of a cool vintage plexi Sub on my wrist.



Now, gilts are super special too and in a different category. They make more of a "splash" on the wrist than one line of red text, IMHO. I just couldn't ever find one with a clean-enough dial, and now they've gone the way of all super expensive vintage Rolex sports watches. In other words, I waited too long.

X3
I could’ve written Aaron’s reply myself. I’ve never been willing to pay the premium for Red. And so many Reds have the minor dial imperfections that would drive me crazy. And likewise the ability to find that perfect Gilt is maddening effort fraught with land mines.
I’ve found the sweet spot of joy with nice MF 5513 , 5512, and a white 1680 keeps me off the streets!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[roh123]

Originally Posted by SubKing

Ya, well when you have one line of red text and a superdome, it’s game over

To me that is a perfect mirrorlike gilt. Red text or not but a perfect glossy surface makes all the difference.

[SubKing]

Originally Posted by roh123

To me that is a perfect mirrorlike gilt. Red text or not but a perfect glossy surface makes all the difference.

ok well, if we are talking gilt, you cannot even compare. Not even in the ball park in price for a mirror gilt.

Of course i would take a gilt any day over any matte dialed sports model, aside from 5517 or comex 5513's, tiffany dials etc..