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3 March 2019, 09:05 PM | #151 | |
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My comments were truly coming from the side of concern. These other brands, which I too own multiple references from, just aren’t putting out a consistently competitive product in terms of design, price, promotion and distribution/production levels compared to Rolex. It’s really not even close at the moment and that lack of parity is a problem. As Tyler mentioned I see the market in a realistic fashion, which unfortunately is as harsh and cold as I have ever seen it. If a brand doesn’t have the right mix of exclusivity, retail price to market price ratio, value retention and effective promotion via multiple channels, it will essentially be ignored until something is adjusted, which unfortunately for those particular brands, is usually price. Discount it enough and somebody will finally buy it. In the luxury space, that is just nasty business... |
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3 March 2019, 09:33 PM | #152 | |
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Thank heavens the same couldn’t be said about Rolex, no hype propelled sheep there... GS is riding a bit of a wave. Fortunately most people are still aghast at the idea of dropping more than $300 on a Seiko, so they’re still readily obtainable without necessitating a reach around at the AD. And should they become “valueless”, it just means you’ll be able to pick up a brilliant, well made watch for less. Not sure what it is about people that they have to be constantly validated in their choice of watch, nor that they have to denigrate other brands in the process. A good watch, (and there are loads of them), is no less a watch because it says “Omega” or “Breitling” on the dial
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3 March 2019, 10:05 PM | #153 | |
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3 March 2019, 10:21 PM | #154 | |
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3 March 2019, 10:25 PM | #155 | |
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3 March 2019, 10:42 PM | #156 |
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I own Rolex and I don’t (yet) own a GS. I have though handled a few (the Seiko Boutique in Knightsbridge is a great place to spend some quality time) and done a lot of research on them. Objectively, taking all possible criteria into consideration, GS is probably at least on a par with SS Rolex. In terms of all the bits you can see, it’s superior. I also have little doubt that the cost of manufacturing a GS would be more than the cost of manufacturing an equivalent Rolex. Which means (and this is quite obvious) you’re paying a higher proportion of the cost of a Rolex on hype AKA marketing than on a GS - does the brand even have a marketing budget?! That’ll be even more true “when the hype subsides”.
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3 March 2019, 11:21 PM | #157 |
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I am late to the discussion but the lack of quality from other brands is not a true statement. There are many brand who make at least as good of a watch as Rolex and many are superior in case design and finish and movements. The problem for the other brands is that currently they are not marketed in a similar manner and the hype associated with Rolex is not on the brand they represent. Like all things this to will fade and shift with time. Most of the younger collectors I know move toward the larger brands and tend to focus on what is driven in the media and watch boards. This is a great time for collectors of other brands other than Rolex and PP. There are many deals to be had, great watches to own and money to be saved. I look at it similar to my journey through car buying when I only aspired to a Mercedes-Benz. After some ownership I tried BMW, Range Rover and finally Lexus. I jumped back and forth but have finally landed on Lexus for all of the factors everyone is aware of. Still like the other brands but in the end for quality and value it is Lexus for me. So starts my journey with Grand Seiko. I will always love Rolex but there are a lot of options that are at least as good.
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3 March 2019, 11:29 PM | #158 |
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The only two omegas I would buy is the new seamaster 300m ceramic and the sapphire sandwich moon watch.
However the bezel on the ceramic seamaster is not up to snuff imo.
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3 March 2019, 11:41 PM | #159 | |
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Saw that. The Seamaster has some things going for it. Movement beats the 313X. But the Seamaster doesn’t beat the Sub because the Seamaster is ugly as shit and the continuity through the ages is a mess. But to each his own. |
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3 March 2019, 11:48 PM | #160 |
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3 March 2019, 11:51 PM | #161 | |
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While there is some truth to this, it’s far more complicated and has more to do with brand recognition. The vast majority of the world can maybe afford one nice watch. When one gets enough $$ together Rolex is the obvious choice due to brand recognition and marketing. Now don’t fool yourself, IWC and Breitling have been making solid and I mean solid bracelets long before Rolex ever had. The reality is the Speedmaster and navitimer are the real deal, period and among the most valued and respected chronos ever made. Unlike the Daytona which is largely marketing hype and is almost completely illegible and is far far less functional than the two I mentioned. I own all three and an say that with certainty as I use them as tools for my job, and rely on their function everyday where a cell phone can’t do. I do agree that Rolex is unique in that they make extreamily well made and reliable pieces that are tough as nails. There sport watch heritage is what makes all their pieces so robust. They walk the line between sport and dressy in a way that no other brand have done. But don’t underestimate their marketing. Rolex is synonymous with success, prestige, etc. |
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4 March 2019, 12:23 AM | #162 | ||
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Tudor has been on a roll since it's re-release in the US market, but how many versions of the Black Bay do we need? They run the risk of diluting their brand value with endless releases. Look how quickly the Panerai line up exploded into utter confusion, discernible to only the most diehard enthusiast. |
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4 March 2019, 12:29 AM | #163 | |
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This is why I’ve always felt that Rolex should stop making more colour variations of the GMT! To be honest, I’d be very disappointed if they did a Coke this coming Basel. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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4 March 2019, 12:31 AM | #164 |
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Good thread. It really is true, Rolex has no competition in the ss watch arena at that price.
AP has some great models but they are more civilized and Patek is in another price bracket. Everyone else is making weird stuff or just experimenting into oblivion like Panerai. Rolex all day for me, although I do fancy a few APs except that I worry about scratches to much. |
4 March 2019, 12:33 AM | #165 | |
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The real reason for the SS shortage: No real competition in the SS market
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The vast majority of the world cannot afford a $5,000 to $10,000 watch, though the vast majority of those in a modern economy can afford a nice Seiko/Hamilton/Tissot level mechanical watch. Most simply get quartz or now, an Apple Watch. The vast majority of the affluent can afford one nice $5,000 to $10,000 watch. Or are simply only willing to pay for one nice watch. I agree with your sentiment, though, and it’s a good point. What brand makes sense for that person saving up for that “one watch” in that price range? Probably Rolex above all others. The brand heritage, the timelessness of design, the connection to the past. SS Submariner, DJ, OP, SS GMT all make perfect sense. Are there other watches from other brands? Of course (e.g., Speedmaster). Tudor is good, too (fake patina aside). But Rolex is the easiest and obvious choice. A collector will look to other brands, something easy to do with multiple $5,000 plus watches. But for that “one watch”, Rolex is the safest choice (though again, a Speedmaster is hard to argue with.) |
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4 March 2019, 12:37 AM | #166 | |
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The only models Rolex has experimented with has been the YM, Milguass and OPs. |
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4 March 2019, 12:39 AM | #167 | |
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4 March 2019, 12:48 AM | #168 |
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4 March 2019, 12:50 AM | #169 | |
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Regular black ceramic, Batman, Root Beer, Pepsi, all in less than ten years with almost no change to the design of the rest of the watch. Variations to other professional models, not so much. And not far off Tudor’s number of Black Bay variations that the previous post mentioned. Just pointing out that prior to this, the change in the Rolex professional line up was much slower. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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4 March 2019, 12:51 AM | #170 | |
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4 March 2019, 12:54 AM | #171 | |
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Anything more expensive than Rolex tends to automatically get bumped from competition because it’s ‘higher tier’ and not a fair comparison. And anything equal in price to Rolex loses because, who wants to pay Rolex money for something that isn’t a Rolex? So the question to the strictly Rolex faithful- what would a brand like Omega need to do in order to earn your money when choosing between a Sub and a Seamaster? To ensure it’s strictly about the watch, let’s assume Omega has: 1) Streamlined their product lines 2) Gotten serious about marketing (i.e., no more fashion nonsense, instead focusing on historical, technical accomplishments and using relevant, respected ambassadors to convey that message 3) Tightened up supply- maybe not to the level Rolex has, but enough so that an SMP purchased at full MSRP from the Boutiue on Friday is still worth at least 80% on the secondary market Monday. |
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4 March 2019, 01:02 AM | #172 | |
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The BLNR is the standout. but as you said, no change and same design...EXACTLY!! and that's why Rolex dominates the ss watch market. Thank God there hasn't been any change to the design, this is why I love Rolex. Classic timeless formula...no fancy shmansy thick or weird shapes and sizes. Just the same formula they got right the first time way back in the 50-60's, all I could possibly ask for is to slim down the Submariner lugs one mill on each side, it's the perfect watch. Walk into Breitling and it's like a circus, a Macy's watch counter and Panerai, $20k for a watch with weird colors in 47mm with a rubber strap- they must want it more than me because I just look and leave it right there in the case for them to enjoy. |
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4 March 2019, 01:05 AM | #173 | |
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Yes, I completely agree, which is why I specifically referrred to professional models. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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4 March 2019, 01:05 AM | #174 | |
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Agreed, and it’s hard to argue as of all the choices, Rolex will hold its value far better than all other brands, save for a few select models from AP or PP. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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4 March 2019, 01:05 AM | #175 |
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The mentioning of GS in all of this brings up some interesting observations I have made via owning and using some GS references.
Other than the branding inadequacy with the general public (how much for a Seiko!) , the problem I have is the cost cutting and poor execution in some regards compared to ultra high end execution in other areas... For example...I have a GS Snowflake. It has a gorgeous and perfect dial. The hand set is perfectly polished, even under the inspection of a loupe. Absolutely brilliant level of attention to detail. So all is well until you unscrew the crown, set the time and screw the crown back down again. Uh oh. That crown sucks. The threads are gritty and it takes some effort to seat it properly first to avoid stripping it out. Compare that to the crown on a Rolex Explorer 1, a similar size watch. No comparison whatsoever. The Rolex crown is perfect in its functionality and execution...so why would GS spend so much effort on the dial and hands, but install a lousy crown? Same with the GS bracelet. Each link is noticeably well crafted and smooth with no hotspots or sharp edges, dare I say nicer than a modern Rolex oyster bracelet in that regard...which I do find the links to have a sharp edge. So after all that craftsmanship and attention to detail focused on the bracelet links, what does Seiko do? Oh, they put it together with pins and collars they use on a $200 Macys Seiko...that and a rebranded clasp they swiped from their other cheaper references. Wtf??? Seiko claims they need to use pins and collars because TI bracelet screws in Ti bracelet don’t work well..Idk..Breitling figured that out a long time ago....plus they still use pins and collars in other GS references that are SS..why? Nothing ruins the feel of a luxury watch than a crappy crown and seeing some pin heads poking out the end of a bracelet... Rolex design quality is more consistent across the whole of the watch. The other guys might do one specific thing better, like GS and their dials, but Rolex presents the best overall package at these price points. |
4 March 2019, 01:06 AM | #176 |
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so you should have less choice because its professional? Thats was my point. Why is it ok for a thousand DJ models, but if someone wants a BLRO, BLNR, LN, CHNR etc then thats too many choices. I dont get it
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4 March 2019, 01:09 AM | #177 | |
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The real reason for the SS shortage: No real competition in the SS market
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It was in response to Cryten’s comment on Tudor about “how many versions of the Black Bay do we need” and how he feels it is diluting the brand. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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4 March 2019, 01:10 AM | #178 |
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The power of psychology. The price of building a brand’s name. Very little rationality about it. Although Rolex no doubt builds dependable, sturdy watches.
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4 March 2019, 01:12 AM | #179 |
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Some people new in the watch game put the “professional” line on a pedestal when it’s just another marketing angle from Rolex compared to the DJ, DD, etc.. There is nothing more “professional” about the entire line or manufacturing standards.
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4 March 2019, 01:19 AM | #180 | |
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This is why the traditional Speedmaster still does well. Everything else is a science experiment. Look at Karl Lagerfeld's AP a watch from the early 70s that looks about the same as one from 2019. I can appreciate that, I buy an Omega today and next couple years it's obsolete aesthetically and mechanically. So the new one is "better?" , well if so, then you were selling me an inferior product a couple years ago, why didn't you just wait to get it right. I believe the first gen PO 2500 is still the best looking and best fitting one and the co-axial D series is a great movement...now we're on our fourth iteration I think... The Submariner has been the same watch throughout that whole debacle. So which would I chose, which is more valuable as a sound product. |
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