Caliber 3035 - starting problem

[TheHitcher]

I’m servicing a very worn 3035 caliber and I’m having problems resolving an issue.
I’ll give you the issue first and then what other issues I had that are now resolved so you can dip in to find out what has been done.

It takes at least five turns of the ratchet wheel to start – the escape wheel tooth will stay on either impulse plane.
Most likely it is the gentle movement while winding what starts it rather than the force of the mainspring/train.
When wound and running, pulling the crown out and pushing it in, sometimes it won’t start.
The escape wheel tooth will stop on the impulse plane of either pallet stone.
I have seen it once stopped and the escape wheel was not touching either of the pallet stones.
If it stops on either locking plane where it should stop, it will start.
At times it picks up amplitude immediately, sometimes it takes around 20/30 seconds to pick up the amplitude when the crown is pushed in and it starts.
Seeing the escape wheel not touching the pallet stones when the crown was pushed in,
the issue is somewhere along the train.
Each train wheel was tested separately under the bridge, puff of air gets them spinning nicely.
Assembled train without the pallet fork in place, a gentle touch of the crown will get the train moving.
Tested without the cannon pinion, the problem is not on the dial side.

The initial issues:
Barrel scraping barrel bridge and ratchet wheel underside of the automatic bridge
Upper bronze bushing worn out – upper and lower bushings now replaced
Barrel and arbour worn out, too much side shake – new barrel complete in place and a new ratchet wheel
Lower chaton, the steel casing was cracked – now replaced.
Third wheel upper jewel two hairline cracks and hole out of round – replaced
Third wheel and second wheel upper pivots slightly rusty, new wheels in place now.
Minute pinion, plastic bushing a little worn out – too much sideshake. Now replaced with a new minute pinion with a jewel.
Escape wheel, too much endshake – adjusted
Pallet fork, locking depth unequal – new pallet for in place, both sides equal
All replacement parts are new and original Rolex.
Letting power down, the balance would keep going for 20 minutes with the click out of the way.
Almost resolved with replacing the sliding pinion and winding pinion – the balance now goes for about a minute. Stops much quicker if the crown is in second position.
Train bridge and pallet bridge are very difficult to put in place.
It has to be done with extreme care as they literally have to be pushed down.
It runs well. Running a long-term performance test over several hours, amplitude is steady. Nothing unusual showing in the log.
Long term test over several hours run in two positions, both fine.
Timing is within specification, fully wound and half wound.
It runs for 50 hours.
When it’s running, it’s absolutely fine.

[noellly]

Maybe wheel and pinion not strong enough in rivet

[TheHitcher]

I never had an issue with a pinion in the rivet, I’m not quite sure how that manifests itself?
The third and second wheel are brand new. The great wheel, I checked it over and all appears to be fine.

[Ron P]

Do a double check on the wheels.
I alway test this as follows: keep the movement horizont al and gently lift a wheel with your tweezers and release the wheel. It should drop down very easily, if not clean the pivots of that wheel and the jewel holes again. Do this for all wheels separately. If oke, you will know the train is fine.
Second checkpoint, verify the barrel is upright and running free with little play in the vertical direction. Especially for you changed the bushings. Next the play of the barrel arbor in the barrel, the play should be minimal, but definitely visible with your loupe for sure. Did you oiled the barrel arbor bearings in the barrel itself with a bit of hp1000? I know it is not in the rolex serv. manuals but Omega has a workinstruction ordering you to oil the barrel arbor pivot with new barrels, factory fresh barrels direct from the blister.

[TheHitcher]

Thank you for your comprehensive response and my apologies for such a late reply. I’ve been away with no access to the internet. I’m back on track now.
I will strip the movement and do the double check and check the wheels again.
The barrel, firstly I didn’t oil it as I could see plenty of oil when I took it out of the blister pack. I put 9501 on the pivots, not HP 1000 as Moebius states that the HP is only for ruby bearings and they recommend D5 or D4 which I didn’t want to use. The Rolex service manual states MR4 which I substituted with 9501.
As I had the issues, I took the train apart and also removed the barrel lid and barrel arbour, cleaned them and lubricated the arbour in barrel and the arbour pivots with 9501 but no joy. Train wheels, I used HP 1000, second wheel 9020, escape wheel 9010.
I will take it all apart and check it all again.

[007Sub]

When winding manually without pallet is there backspin through geartrain? Re-service barrel and make sure the arbor has a touch of endshake. Careful not to over lubricate the minute wheel and intermediate setting wheel posts... use light application of HP1000 and check side shakes once mounted. It sounds like your numbers are quite good once its running yes? Just seems like something is blocking power with first few turns of rachet wheel?

[TheHitcher]

Apologiesfor the late response! I didn’t quite expect another reply and my friend alerted me that I had another reply.
Yes, there is backspin now. I had to adjust the escape wheel endshake which is 0.02 to 0.06 and that cured it. Replacing the minute pinion with the new jewelled one also increased the backspin.
The barrel endshake should be 0.01 to 0.03 which is also fine.
It's not only the first few turns of the ratchet wheel, it is about five turns of the ratchet wheel it takes for it to start but even then, if I use my oiler and stop the escape wheel even when fully wound, I can cause it to stop. So something causes it to 'lock' under any amount of power in the mainspring.
The barrel, I can insert a probe between the teeth and go back and forth to observe the backlash and that sometimes gets it going, sometimes not, in most cases it won't.
The lightest of touches of the escape wheel gets the train going. I think the issue is somewhere that end rather than the barrel so I have ordered a new escape wheel for which I have been waiting for some time. When it arrives, I will test it and post here whether it resolved the issue.
When it’s running, it’s great. Within specification, including timing it after 24 hours. It will run until the mainspring is fully unwound, there is no issue whatsoever when it’s running.

[007Sub]

Have you tried casing it up and letting it run on a winder and or on the wrist for a few days to see how it performs? If it doesn't stop then perhaps you're chasing something that needn't be chased? What is the condition of the posts that the intermediate setting wheel and minute wheels sit on dial side? If these posts are worn that can impact amp and power transfer. If you take the cannon pinion off do you still observe the same issues? Hows the endshake of your balance wheel? Endshake of your barrel (new bushing installed in bridge I assume?). If all of these things are good then i would case it and see how it performs.

[TheHitcher]

No it won’t stop when it’s running. It will work perfectly until the mainspring is fully unwound. It only stops, and that happens sometimes, majority of the time it doesn’t happen, it will not start after pulling the crown out and pushing it in. So the balance stop lever is disengaged and it will not start. A shake will get it going. There is resistance somewhere that happens only occasionally. If I case it and wear it, I won’t have any issues unless I pull the crown out and push it back in. 9 out of 10, it will be fine but there is the odd time when it needs a shake.
I have tested this without the cannon pinion, disconnected from the dial side and the issue remains. The issue is not connected to the wheels on the dial side.
Yes, it’s the bushing in the barrel bridge that was worn out and replaced, the endshake has been adjusted.
So there is the odd time where there is a very slight resistance when I push the crown in to disengage the balance wheel and the stop leaver and also, when I start winding the watch, the resistance is there. It takes at least five turns of the barrel to start. A shake resolves both cases which I think is one case, not two different cases.
There are score marks on the upper escape wheel setting, on the underside. That will be from a previous assembly, the escape wheel pivot pushing against the setting. I think the escape wheel pivot might not be absolutely perfect because of this and causing this issue. I have ordered a new one which has been taking ages to arrive so I will know when it arrives.
For sure, the issue is the train. Cannon pinion removed and once I caught it when the escape wheel wasn’t engaged with either pallet stone. It’s somewhere from the barrel up to the escape wheel. The score marks on the underside of the escape wheel setting, in the brass section, make me think the escape wheel pivot is the issue.

[007Sub]

Originally Posted by TheHitcher

No it won’t stop when it’s running. It will work perfectly until the mainspring is fully unwound. It only stops, and that happens sometimes, majority of the time it doesn’t happen, it will not start after pulling the crown out and pushing it in. So the balance stop lever is disengaged and it will not start. A shake will get it going. There is resistance somewhere that happens only occasionally. If I case it and wear it, I won’t have any issues unless I pull the crown out and push it back in. 9 out of 10, it will be fine but there is the odd time when it needs a shake.
I have tested this without the cannon pinion, disconnected from the dial side and the issue remains. The issue is not connected to the wheels on the dial side.
Yes, it’s the bushing in the barrel bridge that was worn out and replaced, the endshake has been adjusted.
So there is the odd time where there is a very slight resistance when I push the crown in to disengage the balance wheel and the stop leaver and also, when I start winding the watch, the resistance is there. It takes at least five turns of the barrel to start. A shake resolves both cases which I think is one case, not two different cases.
There are score marks on the upper escape wheel setting, on the underside. That will be from a previous assembly, the escape wheel pivot pushing against the setting. I think the escape wheel pivot might not be absolutely perfect because of this and causing this issue. I have ordered a new one which has been taking ages to arrive so I will know when it arrives.
For sure, the issue is the train. Cannon pinion removed and once I caught it when the escape wheel wasn’t engaged with either pallet stone. It’s somewhere from the barrel up to the escape wheel. The score marks on the underside of the escape wheel setting, in the brass section, make me think the escape wheel pivot is the issue.

Could very well be the escape wheel especially since the issue is so intermittent meaning it would make sense for it to be a lower torque area. You might already have mentioned this but have you checked the locking planes of the pallet/escape wheel interaction? Perhaps pallet stones need to be adjusted.