Balance out of poise?

[sevykor]

Thank you in advance for your help. I picked up a 16610 (2006) with a +20 second daily rate. Took it back to the seller (jeweler with a “watch guy”). Offered to regulate the watch. 20 minutes later, he showed me watch running at about 1 second fast. Let the watch sit for a 24 hour period and confirmed excellent time keeping. Wore the watch and noticed an increase, depending on the day, 4 to 8 second increase per 24 hours. I intend to have it serviced in the near future, and I don’t have access to see if watch had been serviced recently.

Could the watch be out of poise? If case back interior shows a recent service date, could the issue be microstella unequally adjusted and would it be easy to balance out the wheel without too much trouble (ie. significant hours spent)? Would you tell a watchmaker that the balance wheel may be out of poise or is that checked during servicing? My concern is that the person doing the adjusting wasn’t careful with equal adjustment of the balance wheel.


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[Easy E]

I would think you would be better off telling the watchmaker what the symptoms are rather than telling them what you think the problem is. A technician worth his salt, no matter the particular industry should be able to properly diagnose the actual problem. Most techs (non-watch industry) I have ever been around are really dismissive when a client tells them what the actual fix should be. Also, if it was my watch, I would send to the RSC to gain the 2 yr service warranty.

[77T]

I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that the balance wheel is out of poise since there was no error after the adjustment.

Had it been out of poise then you'd have seen the accuracy issue with the first 24 hour observation.

I'd live with it since you're going to have it serviced anyway. 4-8 seconds is not meaningful to me.


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[Andad]

Demonstrating accuracy just after adjusting a watch does not indicate how accurate it will be on the wrist.

If you take it to a RSC they will not adjust it, they will quote for a full service.

My understanding is that the micro stellar screws adjust the poise then the timing is corrected by evenly adjusting opposing micro stellar screws?

Is this correct?

[padi56]

Originally Posted by sevykor

Thank you in advance for your help. I picked up a 16610 (2006) with a +20 second daily rate. Took it back to the seller (jeweler with a “watch guy”). Offered to regulate the watch. 20 minutes later, he showed me watch running at about 1 second fast. Let the watch sit for a 24 hour period and confirmed excellent time keeping. Wore the watch and noticed an increase, depending on the day, 4 to 8 second increase per 24 hours. I intend to have it serviced in the near future, and I don’t have access to see if watch had been serviced recently.

Could the watch be out of poise? If case back interior shows a recent service date, could the issue be microstella unequally adjusted and would it be easy to balance out the wheel without too much trouble (ie. significant hours spent)? Would you tell a watchmaker that the balance wheel may be out of poise or is that checked during servicing? My concern is that the person doing the adjusting wasn’t careful with equal adjustment of the balance wheel.


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Gravity affects mechanical watches the most thats why they are tested in 5 different positions,and in those different positions there will be slight deviations in the timekeeping.Remember this the escapement of a mechanical watch in 24 hours pushes the gears 432,000 times and a day has 86,400 seconds. But on the wrist with owners wearing habits given the fact that the movement is constantly affected by the earth's gravity, metal expansion and contraction,mainspring power-reserve, temperature variations, subtle changes in lubrication and friction, shocks, and so on.The fact is that no mechanical watch made will keep 100% perfect time, very close yes but perfect no myself would not worry about those few seconds,the COSC spec is a AVERAGE of -4 to +6 over 24 hours.

Today regulation is a very very simple task for any good watchmaker,its accomplished by turning the Microstella adjustment screws and nuts on the balance wheel.The two smaller Microstella screws make adjustments of one second for each turn on the tool, and the larger Microstella, two seconds for one turn on the tool,but adjustment must be balanced with the opposite gold adjustment screw.

Microstella tool this is the older tool Rolex now has a more modern one but it does the same job and adjustment is done the same way.



Balance-wheel.

#

[Smobews]

Originally Posted by padi56

Gravity affects mechanical watches the most thats why they are tested in 5 different positions,and in those different positions there will be slight deviations in the timekeeping.Remember this the escapement of a mechanical watch in 24 hours pushes the gears 432,000 times and a day has 86,400 seconds. But on the wrist with owners wearing habits given the fact that the movement is constantly affected by the earth's gravity, metal expansion and contraction,mainspring power-reserve, temperature variations, subtle changes in lubrication and friction, shocks, and so on.The fact is that no mechanical watch made will keep 100% perfect time, very close yes but perfect no myself would not worry about those few seconds,the COSC spec is a AVERAGE of -4 to +6 over 24 hours.

Today regulation is a very very simple task for any good watchmaker,its accomplished by turning the Microstella adjustment screws and nuts on the balance wheel.The two smaller Microstella screws make adjustments of one second for each turn on the tool, and the larger Microstella, two seconds for one turn on the tool,but adjustment must be balanced with the opposite gold adjustment screw.

Microstella tool this is the older tool Rolex now has a more modern one but it does the same job and adjustment is done the same way.



Balance-wheel.

#

Peter, do you know how precise the adjustments can be made with the tool? Can the watchmaker fine tune and make 0.1spd adjustments? If a full turn is as small as 1spd, I would imagine that at least 0.25 spd micro adjustments can be made with easily definable quarter turns.

[padi56]

Anything is possible but cannot see any point in fractions of a second doubt if anyone would want accuracy to a fraction of a second,and no mechanical movement made any brand or price will be 100% accurate.

[sevykor]

Originally Posted by Smobews

Peter, do you know how precise the adjustments can be made with the tool? Can the watchmaker fine tune and make 0.1spd adjustments? If a full turn is as small as 1spd, I would imagine that at least 0.25 spd micro adjustments can be made with easily definable quarter turns.

After dozens of watches, mostly Rolex and Omega, I have seen various deviation levels over the course of months. Most recently, I was surprised to see my DSSD 3135 (currently my daily) at +3 seconds after almost 2 months w/o adjustment. My master chronometer co-axial 88xx is a close second.
I believe that if time is invested, one can make a modern movement incredibly accurate. I don’t know if most watchmakers feel the need to do so. The long held -4/+6 needs to be re-evaluated in my opinion and brands are moving to a shorter deviation (ie. -2/+2, -0/+5, etc). If watch adjustment was looked upon as golf, a challenge to acquire the lowest number, words like “content” or “settled” would have no place…
My highest concern is one of complacency. I would image a watchmaker “worth his salt” indeed should make note of the poise. My concern is that many may not bother. I’ve regrettably only known one that would, and he retired a decade ago.


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[Smobews]

Originally Posted by sevykor

After dozens of watches, mostly Rolex and Omega, I have seen various deviation levels over the course of months. Most recently, I was surprised to see my DSSD 3135 (currently my daily) at +3 seconds after almost 2 months w/o adjustment. My master chronometer co-axial 88xx is a close second.
I believe that if time is invested, one can make a modern movement incredibly accurate. I don’t know if most watchmakers feel the need to do so. The long held -4/+6 needs to be re-evaluated in my opinion and brands are moving to a shorter deviation (ie. -2/+2, -0/+5, etc). If watch adjustment was looked upon as golf, a challenge to acquire the lowest number, words like “content” or “settled” would have no place…
My highest concern is one of complacency. I would image a watchmaker “worth his salt” indeed should make note of the poise. My concern is that many may not bother. I’ve regrettably only known one that would, and he retired a decade ago.


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My question is more from a technical perspective. Omega is introducing the Spirate system that allows for 0.1 spd incremental changes. In practicality, that level of adjustment is irrelevant when the slightest change in a persons daily wear pattern can change the rate observed by way more than 0.1 spd. My Rolexes have different rates when I wear them on the weekends compared to during the week. Sitting at a computer all day with the watch mostly dial up and 6 o’clock up is different than during the weekend.

[sevykor]

Originally Posted by Smobews

My question is more from a technical perspective. Omega is introducing the Spirate system that allows for 0.1 spd incremental changes. In practicality, that level of adjustment is irrelevant when the slightest change in a persons daily wear pattern can change the rate observed by way more than 0.1 spd. My Rolexes have different rates when I wear them on the weekends compared to during the week. Sitting at a computer all day with the watch mostly dial up and 6 o’clock up is different than during the weekend.

You make an excellent point. Perhaps a movement that is made more tolerant to the variables created by position, temp, iso, and thereby tightening the requirements for what makes a chronometer a chronometer, the Spirate system may be or become a valuable feature. I applaud Omega/Swatch group (and other manufacturers) for taking the next step in innovating a movement that may one day become even more accurate.

[Smobews]

Originally Posted by sevykor

You make an excellent point. Perhaps a movement that is made more tolerant to the variables created by position, temp, iso, and thereby tightening the requirements for what makes a chronometer a chronometer, the Spirate system may be or become a valuable feature. I applaud Omega/Swatch group (and other manufacturers) for taking the next step in innovating a movement that may one day become even more accurate.

I’m a stickler for precision and accuracy, but it seem that the vast majority of mechanical movement owners are not.

[Ron P]

Regarding the Omega Spirate: Pure marketing. irregularities caused by temperature, position, acceleration etc. are all > 0,1 second. What do you think if you have a walking day and your watch is all the time swing crown down, compared to a normal office day where the watch is more or less dial up when you are behind your desk. These deviations are measured in seconds, so adjusting to 0,1 sec is nonsense.

But I have to admit it looks stunning visually.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Ron P

Regarding the Omega Spirate: Pure marketing. irregularities caused by temperature, position, acceleration etc. are all > 0,1 second. What do you think if you have a walking day and your watch is all the time swing crown down, compared to a normal office day where the watch is more or less dial up when you are behind your desk. These deviations are measured in seconds, so adjusting to 0,1 sec is nonsense.

But I have to admit it looks stunning visually.

Have to agree and for any purely mechanical watch to run within a few seconds a day either way out of 86400 in a day truly is a mechanical marvel.But today with many on this forum getting obsessed over a few seconds defeats me, thank god my long life was never run to the exact second. Life's to short to worry and fret over a few seconds out of 86400 in a day.

[Rolex tom]

I doubt it's out of poise, the watchmaker may have just adjusted just a little too much. it might well have been gaining +1 dial up but in the verticals maybe +4/5.

[007Sub]

Possibly already mentioned but could also be magnetism impacting rate change. Either way only a read out in 6 positions on a timegrapher will elucidate poise error or other issues. And a certain amount of poise error is expected by the way... usually manufactures hide this in crown right.