Show your Scuba Equipment

[Zed Homme]

Originally Posted by Rogue884

Zed,

I used to sell them years ago, they are simple to overhaul, few working parts, built like a tank, and can take a beating. The perfect rental regulator, but not so great for depth, below 130 they get hard to breath. The whistling is most likely coming from the 1st stage's dry bleed system.

Chris

Thats exactly what is happening, which is why it isnt an issue as I use up my air. The deepest Ive gone with it is about 120ft and didnt have any trouble, but I dont doubt you for a second...

[djhiram]

Originally Posted by Subfiend

However, Scubapro seems to be leading the pack when it comes to equipment problems.

Fair enough. But then why are you using a Uwatec (Scubapro) wrist computer in your pics? Sorry, bad joke but I couldn't resist
I use a Tilos shorty too!

[Rogue884]

I still have my Alladin II, and here is where I will show my age, I also stll have my Monitor II (First computer that would allow limited Deco) and the Scan 4. I remember all the hubbub about an air integrated computer, the Scan 4 was the first, and the year was 1992.

[Subfiend]

Originally Posted by djhiram

Fair enough. But then why are you using a Uwatec (Scubapro) wrist computer in your pics? Sorry, bad joke but I couldn't resist
I use a Tilos shorty too!

The Uwatec is my back up. The predecessor model to that computer was recalled after seven divers were injured, five sued, and one filed a class action to force a recall. I figure Uwatec learned its lesson. However, I rely on my Rolex and tables.

[Brushpup]

Enjoying this thread although I don't understand much of the hardware talk. Still interesting, and apparently some of you have "been around the block".

Can one of you explain using a watch and tables as opposed to a computer...which I assume calculates your ascent?

[Zed Homme]

Originally Posted by Brushpup

Enjoying this thread although I don't understand much of the hardware talk. Still interesting, and apparently some of you have "been around the block".

Can one of you explain using a watch and tables as opposed to a computer...which I assume calculates your ascent?

Im not a fraction of the diver that some of these guys are but I'll try to answer your question. Using tables and a watch is a bit like navigation with a sextant vs a GPS. The computers give great info and due to their processing power can infinitely reassess nitrogen exposure, but like any such device, they can and do fail. Calculating times with tables is fail safe and idiot proof giving a margin of error. During a dive is an inopportune moment to have equipment failure, especially when your life is dependent on said equipment. I personally dive with a computer but always wear an automatic (almost always a Rolex) watch as a back up. I just feel safer that way.

[Subfiend]

Originally Posted by Brushpup

Enjoying this thread although I don't understand much of the hardware talk. Still interesting, and apparently some of you have "been around the block".

Can one of you explain using a watch and tables as opposed to a computer...which I assume calculates your ascent?

One of the problems with diving is that nitrogen from the air you breathe gets forced into your body tissue as a consequence of the increased pressure underwater. The deeper you go and the longer you stay, the more nitrogen you absorb. The nitrogen comes out of your tissues when you ascend and the presure decreases. It goes into you blood and is transported to your lungs, where it escapes in your exhaled breath. If you stay down too long, the residual nitrogen can't escape quickly enough, so the nitrogen in your tissues expands into bubbles in your muscle, fat, circulatory system, nervous system, etc. This can cause decompression sickness, also know as the bends, sometimes with fatal results. This is bad.

There are limits to how lung you can stay at each depth before you have to stop and "decompress" on the way up. These "no decompression limits" (NDL) are displayed on tables that every diver learns. Most recreational dives are planned so you can avoid exceeding these limits. To do so, you simply monitor the time spent underwater on your watch and your depth on a gauge, and you ascend before you reach the NDL for your particular depth. This is old school.

Computers monitor your depth and time underwater and constantly recalculate your NDL depending on your depth. They also monitor your "decompression obligation" if you exceed your NDL and tell you how long you have to stop at certain depths to off-gas before you ascend further.

The problem with computers is that they use different algorithms and some are very conservative while others are not. They also have batteries, which can fail, and they are subject to the same problems as all electronic devices. You cannot over rely on them.

Also, Uwatec sold a computer that was programed with bad code, so it did not know when it was on the surface. It incorrectly calculated the diver's NDL if he made multiple dives in one day. Several dives got the bends by relying on this computer.

[DadsWatch72]

There have been studies that say to stop and decompress at 10 or 15 feet for every dive (including a non-decompression dive). Studies have found small microscopic nitrogen bubbles in the joints and various body tissues upon autopsy in people that did a lot of diving in their lives. A safty decompression stop has been found to help eliminate these gas bubbles almost entirely, even when on a normal non-decompression profile.


http://www.scubadiverinfo.com/2_physiology.html

http://www.scubaont.com/magazine/education/deep.htm

[Subfiend]

Originally Posted by DadsWatch72

There have been studies that say to stop and decompress at 10 or 15 feet for every dive (including a non-decompression dive). Studies have found small microscopic nitrogen bubbles in the joints and various body tissues upon autopsy in people that did a lot of diving in their lives. A safty decompression stop has been found to help eliminate these gas bubbles almost entirely, even when on a normal non-decompression profile.


http://www.scubadiverinfo.com/2_physiology.html

http://www.scubaont.com/magazine/education/deep.htm

Very true. It is also true that we still know very little about diving physiology and science, even after decades of research. And the same rules can apply differently to a single person from day to day. The most important rule in diving is to know your limits and stay well within them.

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by DadsWatch72

There have been studies that say to stop and decompress at 10 or 15 feet for every dive (including a non-decompression dive). Studies have found small microscopic nitrogen bubbles in the joints and various body tissues upon autopsy in people that did a lot of diving in their lives. A safty decompression stop has been found to help eliminate these gas bubbles almost entirely, even when on a normal non-decompression profile.


http://www.scubadiverinfo.com/2_physiology.html

http://www.scubaont.com/magazine/education/deep.htm

Even back when I was a professional this was a standard procedure.

[Rogue884]

Keep this in mind Brushpup, we are talking about deep extended range diving with mix gases, decompression, and rebreathers; well beyond the limits of a typical recreational divers. The mantra of "Dive Planning" is taken to a whole new level in Technical Diving.

In recreational diving, ie: below 60 feet, single tank, no decompression; you can strap on a dive computer and let it think for you. It will tell you how long you can stay down, how much air you have left, it will beep at you if you surface to fast, and will lock you out (Shut down) if you violate any of the NDL's. Very safe, grab and go diving for the folks that get certified and may dive once or twice a year in a very tropical climate.

In Technical diving we are truly planning our dives, we figure out or breathing rates, so we can compute how much gas we will need on the dive to complete the profile we want to dive, and because we are diving beyond the recreational limits (to 300 feet), we have to know how long and at what depths we need to make stops at, and because we are using mixed gases for greater saftey, we have to know their safety limits and uses for the application we are utilizing them for.

The main difference, if something goes wrong at 60 feet, you can swim to the surface for self rescue, we can't.

[Subfiend]

Chris brings up an interesting point. You have to know what you are capable of successfully doing and then stay within your limits. You may choose to extend those limits, but you are solely responsible for your own safety if you do. Your are playing by "Big Boy Rules" when you get into technical diving.

Personally, I don't venture into these areas too often. I have in the past, but I rarely do so now because I don't believe I dive enough to stay proficient on the razor's edge. I may occasionally do a trimix dive or dive on a rebreather, but only with an instructor and usually for business reasons. This is my choice based on my assessment of my personal limitations, and I don't know a single diver that would question my decision.

One thing I love about the old school diving community is that there is no peer pressure. My dive buddies, many of whom have made thousands of dives, are very supportive of each other. If today doesn't feel right, there is always tomorrow or another day. Nobody pushes anybody to do anything they don't feel comfortable doing. If they did, it would be a recipe for disaster.

[Brushpup]

All very interesting and enlightening. I knew about the "bends"....always thought that sounded like such a horrible way to die.

I appreciate everyone taking time to explain. Again, all very interesting.

[Subfiend]

Originally Posted by Brushpup

All very interesting and enlightening. I knew about the "bends"....always thought that sounded like such a horrible way to die.

I appreciate everyone taking time to explain. Again, all very interesting.

A close friend of mine died of the bends last year after a deep technical dive, as did another friend in 2006. Both were horrible, but mercifully quick.

There is such great awareness of what causes the bends that it is becoming less common in recreational diving. Now the most common causes of death are cardiac issues and arterial gas embolism (AGE). AGE is an overexpanision of gas in the circulatory system normally caused by rapid ascent. ALL divers can experience AGE. It can happen in as little as 10 to 20 feet of water. That's why I monitor my ascent on my watch rather than wait for my computer to beep at me. I believe that I slow down and take my time when I watch that second hand sweep slowly around the dial.

[DadsWatch72]

Originally Posted by Subfiend

A close friend of mine died of the bends last year after a deep technical dive, as did another friend in 2006. Both were horrible, but mercifully quick.

There is such great awareness of what causes the bends that it is becoming less common in recreational diving. Now the most common causes of death are cardiac issues and arterial gas embolism (AGE). AGE is an overexpanision of gas in the circulatory system normally caused by rapid ascent. ALL divers can experience AGE. It can happen in as little as 10 to 20 feet of water. That's why I monitor my ascent on my watch rather than wait for my computer to beep at me. I believe that I slow down and take my time when I watch that second hand sweep slowly around the dial.

The greatest pressure change is within 10-20 feet of water. I haven't been below 60 feet.......ever. I'm YMCA certified and I use Navy dive tables whenever I have made a dive. I understand how to plan/calculate decompression dives but I think that surface support is critical in decompression diving (and a heck of a lot of extra tanks standing by.....just in case). I would like to go deep but it is very risky and the older I get the fewer risks I seem to take.

[Rogue884]

It is a calculated risk to a degree, and one that is de-mystified after training. Honestly, its math, and once you know the math it is really not that complicated or esoteric.

[Subfiend]

Originally Posted by Rogue884

It is a calculated risk to a degree, and one that is de-mystified after training. Honestly, its math, and once you know the math it is really not that complicated or esoteric.

Agreed, but I'm terrible with math so I generally feel the risk for me is a lot greater.

Actually, I think the risks are greater for new divers -- especially kids -- who stay in shallow water and just don't realize how dangerous it is to hold their breath or ascend too quickly.

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by Subfiend

Actually, I think the risks are greater for new divers -- especially kids -- who stay in shallow water and just don't realize how dangerous it is to hold their breath or ascend too quickly.

In my experience David, the two worse diving accidents that happened to friends of mine were a spinal bend and an embolism. One resulted in disability for life and the other resulted in death. Both of the individuals concerned were experience and qualified diving instructors. I agree that inexperienced divers can make mistakes but I also think that very experienced divers can believe "the rules don't apply to me"

[RebreatherDiver]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

In my experience David, the two worse diving accidents that happened to friends of mine were a spinal bend and an embolism. One resulted in disability for life and the other resulted in death. Both of the individuals concerned were experience and qualified diving instructors. I agree that inexperienced divers can make mistakes but I also think that very experienced divers can believe "the rules don't apply to me"

Not this guy, I have had three friends die on rebreathers in two years. I follow pre-dive checklists before every dive, just as pilots do before flying. I understand the "rules" and dive with conservatism settings that offer offer a safety margin from true ZHL-Buhlman tables. I would rather continue to trouble shoot a problem a depth and die, than ever surface and break the rules in a panic. Maybe that is me, but I take my life to seriously to dive like a cowboy (no reference to your picture). Cheers, I hope everyone dives safe. I refuse to explain or attempt to "teach" what diving with tables are about on the internet. If you want to know, get trained and properly understand what you are doing, your life is too important.

Cheers

[Subfiend]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

In my experience David, the two worse diving accidents that happened to friends of mine were a spinal bend and an embolism. One resulted in disability for life and the other resulted in death. Both of the individuals concerned were experience and qualified diving instructors. I agree that inexperienced divers can make mistakes but I also think that very experienced divers can believe "the rules don't apply to me"

Nathan,

You are absolutely right. The number of highly experienced divers who are injured or killed because they think the rules do not apply to them is appalling. It boggles the mind. Unfortunately, some of these incidents end up being the subject of lawsuits because the people they leave behind simply cannot believe their loved one was capable of making a mistake. I see this often.

I was a speaker at Divers Alert Network's recent three day workshop on reducing diving fatalities, so I have had my head buried in the studies and statistics for quite a while this year. Some statistics seem to indicate that inexperienced divers are at a greater risk than experienced divers.

For example, DAN reported in its 2005 Report of Decompression Illness, Diving Fatalities and Project Dive Exploration that: "[th]e number of dives in the previous 12 months was related to the occurrence of death. There were more occasional than regular divers among fatalities." This study included various statistics for 89 of 109 recreational diving fatalities that occurred in 2003 and were reported to DAN. A majority of the divers had only Open Water or Advanced Open Water certifications. Furthermore, information about the number of dives performed by the diver in the 12 months prior to the incident was available in 54 cases. Of this number, nearly 45 percent of divers had no dives or had not dived in the previous 12 months; another 28 percent of divers had less than 20 dives in the past 12 months. Only 28 percent of divers could be classified as regular divers, or those having made more than 20 dives in the previous 12 months. There were at least 10 "novice divers," or those with 20 or fewer lifetime dives.

The problem is that the rate of accidents among experienced v. inexperienced divers is not well studied, or at least it is not uniformly studied with reliable data from year to year. It would be helpful to obtain this information for diving. I know it exists for general aviation, and it shows a huge spike in fatal accidents for pilots in the 100-250 hour experience range. The number of fatal accidents tapers off dramatically after approximately 300 hours.

The good news is that, according to another study, the actual likelihood of injury in recreational scuba diving seems to be 100 times less than the likelihood of injury in snow skiing. So it's time to get in the water!