New guy with questions: Submariners, AD v. UAD, Belize?

[Downing]

Hi folks:

I've been thinking about buying a Rolex for some time now and stumbled across this forum a few days ago. This looks like a fun and friendly place to hang out, and I'm humbly seeking your advice and opinions. Here's my situation:

I've been into scuba diving for some time now and have decided to buy a Rolex dive watch. Not a month goes by that I don't see at least one ad for the gold and blue Submariner in a scuba magazine. By golly, advertising works! or at least it worked its magic on me.

I've narrowed down the choices to these four models, all with a black dial: the Submariner Models 14060M Non-Date, 16610, 16613 and the Sea-Dweller 4000 Model 16600.

As a matter of preference, I'm not a huge fan of the cyclops on the crystal or even the date on the dial. Obviously, it's not a deal killer for me, but I just think the watch looks cleaner without them, which is why I'm especially drawn to the Sea Dweller, since it doesn't have a cyclops, and the 14060M, which has no date at all.

But the 14060M is not certified as a chronometer. I assume this is one of the reasons that it is less expensive than the others (with the lack of date being the other). I'm not sure just what chronometer certification is all about but it sounds like it's probably worth the extra dough. Is it?

On to the Sea-Dweller. It looks like a diver's watch. The Rolex site says it's a divers watch. But I need some reassurance, is it really a divers watch? If so, why isn't it included in the Submariner family? Has anyone tried the helium escape valve? I can't find anything on it.
Assuming I can dive with it, the SD is probably the watch for me, but I'm keeping my options open. This brings me to the two remaining possibilities listed above.

Model 16610 is very similar in appearance and cost to the Sea Dweller. It has the cyclops date that I don't particularly care for but I'm sure I'd grow to like if not love. But it doesn't have the helium escape valve. Any thoughts you have on comparing the two?

And finally, Model 16613 in steel and gold. It's a beautiful watch. Maybe too beautiful for me, though. I'm a self-employed lawyer in a 2-person law office. I wear a suit about half the work week, which is to say when I'm in court or meeting with clients. Otherwise, well let's just say I like to relax in comfortable clothes--it's a perk of being self-employed in a very informal office. That watch would look fantastic while I'm wearing a suit, but maybe it's a bit much otherwise. I must admit, though, every time I look at it I get uh, really interested. I haven't ruled it out, but chances are if I'm not wearing a suit when I buy the watch, I'm probably not buying that one.

Which brings me to my next topic (assuming you folks are hanging in there with me): authorized vs unauthorized dealers or perhaps I should say pay list price with full confidence vs pay discount price with as close to full confidence as possible. I'm not all that impressed with my local ADs, frankly. I've talked to three sales clerks in two different shops. They may or may not know much about the jewelry they were selling but I could tell they didn't know much more than me about Rolex and that's a low bar. I suppose one could argue, "hey, what's to know, it's a Rolex," but still, I feel like I would be paying a premium, list price, for not a lot of service that I can't find elsewhere.

On the other hand, I've been knocking around the internet and have run across some proudly unauthorized dealers who I'm pretty sure I can be confident in. Their prices are better, their warranties are better. It's hard for me to see a downside. Your thoughts?

To be clear, I'm not talking about buying from an individual or from an auction type site like eBay. I read the eBay thread with interest and admire the cahones of those of you who scored some good deals that way. But while I may not know much about Rolex, I certainly know enough to know that I don't know enough to go that route.

And finally, I'm headed for Belize next summer for another diving vacation. I'm still kicking myself for not making it to the AD in Playa del Carmen when I was diving in Mexico last month. Has anyone heard anything about the prices in Belize? Is there even an AD in Belize?

Any and all answers, guesses and opinions are welcome and appreciated. Sorry for the long post but I thought it was best just to lay all my questions out in one thread rather than splitting them up into multiple topics.

[SWFLA1]

Considering everything you've said... get the Sea Dweller.... just my opinion....

[timebroker]

Chronometer ; Tested by an institute in Switzerland to see if the watch keeps accurate time. Longer explanation will be provided very soon I'm sure , positions (towards gravity) and temperature play a role.

AD or internet ; Nothing wrong with buying pre owned as long as the seller is reliable but this is in many cases rare imo, try furman.com.

Divers watch ; Yes, considered one of the strongest and most durable.

Escape valve ; Used to let gas escape (when rising) because no matter how tightly closed a watch is, there always will enter gas when going to great depths and returning so the gas wants to escape again, kinda the same as caisson disease I guess.

Prices Belize ; Goto here http://www.rolex.com/en/inside-rolex...ates/index.jsp you can look up a contact telephone number, they will tell you where you can find an official dealer. Does not seem to be any near Belize but try your local Rolex center.

Hope this helps.

[Tools]

You've done some research..You can't go wrong with any of those.

However, COSC certification is a marketing effort, period. The movement in the non-date Sub is the same movement as in Rolex COSC certified watches. It can be regulated to be just as accurate, without the complication of the date, so pick an opinion, they all cost the same.

Now is the time to buy one of these at what are essentially "rock bottom prices". The newer non-dates will wear the "officially certified" badging as other Rolex and the price will reflect this extra step.

Personally though, I would go with the Sub-date. You will find that the cyclops becomes your friend, and you will scour everyone elses wrist looking for this tell tale Rolex insignia.

And if you really want my opinion, (aren't you glad you asked), go with the TT. Pure class..

[Gaijin]

If you want the TT Black/Gold Submariner my AD in Portland has one and will give you 10% off on it.

[mike]

Wow! That's a lot! I'll try to answer as much as I can.

First of all welcome!, and congrats on deciding to get the Submariner. The watch has such a proud history, and any of the models you're considering will be right at home in any enviornment you can imagine.

Whether you choose the 14060M, 16610, 16613, or the 16600 largely is a matter of which you prefer. From a timekeeping and performance perspective there's little difference between any of them.

The 14060M has recently been "upgraded" to chronometer status, however they are not widely available yet. This occurred this year at Bazel (Swiss watch show) and there is always a lag time to make it into the system.
That being the case, the non-chrono version is just as strong and accurate as any watch made. Indeed owners report sterling accuracy with the piece. COSC certification is IMHO more marketing than anything else, and yes you do pay for it.
The 14060M uses the same movement as in the Explorer I--a watch that is certified. The fact is most modern watches can be tuned to COSC specs.
As a pure divers tool the 14060M is as pure as it gets. Everything you need and nothing you don't. Additionally it comes with lug holes (the only one that does) allowing you the option of fitting a different strap with little trouble. It also uses the older style 93150 bracelet used on the older vintage pieces. (I kinda like those.)

Both the 16610 and 16600 use the same movement and for all practicality one is as "tough" as the other. Certainly with it's thicker case and HE valve the SD may considered the "professionals" tool, but those that are in a position to actually have a need of the HE valve are a rare breed.

Note: Google COMEX for a wonderfull history on the SD and the birth of the HE valve.
In my view, however the SD presents a more utilitarian look as befitting a purpose built tool watch, and as such has developed a very strong following. It is rarer to see an SD in the wild than the more common Sub. date.
The 16610 is the classic Rolex sport watch. Such a storied history! The watch has served the professional and amateur alike for many years. It's been in the most hostile enviornments on the planet and has given yeoman's service!
Because of the thinner case compared to the SD some feel it a more comfortable watch, but that's personal preference.

The TT version is the same watch with precious metal. It's a lovely watch, perhaps the watch the mind "sees" when TT is mentioned. It's blue dial is iconic!

Whether for "show" or "go" any of the submariner family is a great choice capable of being completely at home in wet or the courtroom!

I don't have a 16613, but it's a very popular watch on the forum and you'll shortly see a few pics.

I do have the 16610 and 16600 so I can give you a few pics for comparison,







Luminosity is the same, to get any more one has to go "maxi",



Of course only the SD has the valve,



I don't have the modern 14060M, but rather it's older brother the 5513. Hopefully this will give a bit of an idea,



Which ever way you go, the Submariner is a supurb choice!

[GoldenBear]

Would you prefer a certified dive company fill and maintain your air tanks or the guy in his car behind the cafe. Are you going to go with who is cheaper?

[Letsgodiving]

I can't add much to what has been said previously but from my understanding the gold scratches much more easily than the SS so if you plan to use this watch diving SS may be the way to go from a practical standpoint.

As a scuba diver you will never have a need for the HE valve in the SD. It is only for commercial divers who use a dive bell. The SD does, however, have a thicker crystal so if you inadvertently smash it up against a piece of coral or a wreck it is more likely to maintain its integrity.

The sub and the SD are both fine watches for any scuba adventure and you can't go wrong with either. My recommendation would be to try them all on and see which one grabs you.

[DaveN]

One thought on the cyclops. For years I thought that it looked a bit silly. As I have aged and I'm approaching the reading glass stage I have finally realized why the cyclops exists. I love my Ebel that I've had for years but it is getting difficult to read the date.

[timebroker]

Originally Posted by GoldenBear

Would you prefer a certified dive company fill and maintain your air tanks or the guy in his car behind the cafe. Are you going to go with who is cheaper?

What do you mean?
Buying AD or pre owned?
====================
Mike, you always make me loose so much time having to read your detailed and excellent posts

[roadcarver]

If you are primarily using the watch for diving, I would not recommend getting TT watches since gold tend to be softer and not as durable as steel.

If you like the clean look of the 14060 but require the date, I would go with the SD. SD will hit higher on your wrist and it is top heavy.

If you go with the 14060, will you be missing the date feature?

To be safe, go to your local AD and try both watches and see which feels and looks the best on your wrist.

Good luck,

Vernon

[Downing]

Wow, you folks are awesome! I put out a post seeking opinions and answers, then take my wife to dinner and a movie (Bourne Kills Quickly And Efficiently Part III). I check the forum when I return and much to my surprise the response was almost overwhelming.

Thanks!

SWFLA1: Good advice. I'm definitely leaning towards it and really didn't know it until I wrote, then read my own post.

timebroker: Thanks for taking the time to answer or attempt to answer every question. Furman was one of the "proudly unauthorized dealers" to whom I was referring.

Tools: I agree, the TT looks the classiest. Somehow, I think it looks a lot classier on the wrist above a Mercedes Benz steering wheel then it would look on the wrist above my beater Jeep steering wheel. Nevertheless, thanks for taking the time to post the photos and for the information.

KansaiVet: That Furman guy sells the same for a 20% discount, but in any case I'm leaning towards the SD. Let's talk.

Mike: That was awesome post! I can't thank you enough for all the info plus posting comparison photos. Wow!

GoldenBear: I'm with timebroker on this one as I'm not sure what you mean (unless you were going off topic in which case the answer is I would definitely go with the dive shop to fill my tank). I'm buying new. But I'm probably not buying from an AD since I can get the same watch cheaper with a better warranty elsewhere.

Letsgodiving: Good info re: gold scratching more easily than SS (and the same goes for roadcarver). I'll definitely take the watch diving so that's a good point to consider. I've tried them all on and they all grabbed me. :)

DaveN: Unfortunately, I had to start wearing bifocals in my mid-30's, about 15 years ago. Nothing gives you that "Great, I'm turning into my grandfather" sinking feeling like being told you need bifocals. So I hear you on that one. But as much as I probably need that cyclops, I want to try to do without it. Kind of like the guy who refuses to get a hearing aid but then demands everyone speak up and gets mad when they don't.

roadcarver: The date's not that important to me, but if I have to have it I'd just as soon it be small and unobtrusive, like the SD.

So once again thanks to one and all. I still can't believe the number of responses I got within just a few hours. Awesome.

[Andad]

Hi Downing,

Great 1st post and a nice 'short list' of Rolex divers.

I haven't been diving for probably 10 years but all my Rolex watches SS or TT are in the water at some time during summer. I have an SD and an SS Sub in your list. I also have a TT blue Sub. I don't think I have ever worn that to the beach but it has been in the pool.

IMO your choice depends on whether you intend to add to your Rolex range or if you are looking for a one off Rolex to have in your collection. If you want a one off then I would choose the TT Sub. In your line of work this would be perfect for dress and fun and the gold will stand up OK.

If you are thinking of buying more Rolex models then I would choose the SD as your first - you don't see so many around and they are the most bullet proof Rolex that you could buy. Second choice for me would be the 14060M as I do like the symmetry of this no date. Last would be the SS Sub only because the SD will do all that the SS Sub can do and more.

Whichever Rolex you choose - enjoy it.

[SPACE-DWELLER]

Again welcome to TRF (already welcomed you in the "New Member" forum)

The right decision is a no-brainer IMHO.

Go for the Sub Date. You get a better fit than the SD and you get a date function that the 14060M does not have.

AND you get a real tough watch that is handsome and practical to boot

As the Rolex Submariner booklet included with the Submariner Date says (quoted out of my memory now!):

"The Submariner is a handsome watch for social and business wear, yes stays - first and foremost - a diver's watch".

[Andad]

Originally Posted by Spacedweller

Again welcome to TRF (already welcomed you in the "New Member" forum)

The right decision is a no-brainer IMHO.

Go for the Sub Date. You get a bitter fit than the SD and you get a date function that the 14060M does not have.

AND you get a real tough watch that is handsome and practical to boot

As the Rolex Submariner booklet included with the Submariner Date says (quoted out of my memory now!):

"The Submariner is a handsome watch for social and business wear, yes stays - first and foremost - a diver's watch".

I'm sure Bo meant to say 'Better' Fit.

The SS Sub is in my opinion also boring.

[Andad]

DAMN!

Now I wish I had bought the SD!
__________________
With kind regards, Bo

"Just recently Rolex got on the WRONG train, going in the WRONG direction, heading for Breitling Town, briefly stopping at Omega City". © Bo (2007).


As quoted.

[SPACE-DWELLER]

Originally Posted by directioneng

I'm sure Bo meant to say 'Better' Fit.

The SS Sub is in my opinion also boring.

Originally Posted by directioneng

DAMN!

Now I wish I had bought the SD!
__________________
With kind regards, Bo

"Just recently Rolex got on the WRONG train, going in the WRONG direction, heading for Breitling Town, briefly stopping at Omega City". © Bo (2007).


As quoted.

Replies frozen.

[Subfiend]

Yes, you can dive with the Sea-Dweller. In fact, you can dive with all of them.



I don't know if there are any ADs in Belize, but I made the mistake of wearing my TT Blue Sub on a dive trip there. Big mistake. The watch was too noticeable.

[David1971]

The LV is a great dive watch with larger minute hand and maxi dial. Better lume

-David

mike's pic.

[Lol-x]

You need to put the watch on your wrist and see how it feels.
I would suggest either the new GMT II or the Green Submariner. Both have black maxi dials, which seems to be the trend for the future.
Good Luck, you can hardly go wrong especially in Oregon, you tax freerider

[mike]

Originally Posted by Lol-x

You need to put the watch on your wrist and see how it feels.
I would suggest either the new GMT II or the Green Submariner. Both have black maxi dials, which seems to be the trend for the future.
Good Luck, you can hardly go wrong especially in Oregon, you tax freerider

As Steve says, might an option to consider,

[TNRonin]

Well here is a link to some pictures of someone who tested an SD in a real life test. http://members.aol.com/sheldons4/ima...wellerTest.pdf

[GoldenBear]

My point was that when shopping in a third world country you might want to be extra sure of your sources. IMO, an AD would be the only way to go. You are already saving and duty and or taxes.

[Letsgodiving]

Originally Posted by TNRonin

Well here is a link to some pictures of someone who tested an SD in a real life test. http://members.aol.com/sheldons4/ima...wellerTest.pdf

Very cool. There are obviously not many opportunities to put the SD depth rating to a test. Good to know it passed with flying colors. It is probably good for quite a bit more but 1200m is not too shabby.