Have you had problems with Steve Mullholland?

[Dave_T26]

Originally Posted by pawnshopkiller

Ok fine wrong dial...


Should have researched it before the purchase or at the very least DURING THE3 DAY NO HASSLE RETURN PERIOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Passed Three Days. It's your watch wrong dial or not!!!

It was actually more than 3 days. From the original FS link from OP:

5 day no questions asked return policy

[Welshwatchman]

There's no reason for an amicable solution not to be found.

The dial doesn't appear to be a MKV type found on the late 7/early 8 million 5513s, though there are no face-on pics to say for sure.

Also, SM specifies a 5 day no-quibble refund and an indefinite period if found non authentic.

It leaves the grey area of non-originality, including the thorny issue of establishing the case.

It seems to me that Steve is a stand up guy. Don't rub him up the wrong way and I'm pretty sure he'll sort you out to your reasonable satisfaction.

[subtona]

Originally Posted by Welshwatchman

There's no reason for an amicable solution not to be found.

The dial doesn't appear to be a MKV type found on the late 7/early 8 million 5513s, though there are no face-on pics to say for sure.

Also, SM specifies a 5 day no-quibble refund and an indefinite period if found non authentic.

It leaves the grey area of non-originality, including the thorny issue of establishing the case.

It seems to me that Steve is a stand up guy. Don't rub him up the wrong way and I'm pretty sure he'll sort you out to your reasonable satisfaction.

solid

[TattooedGQ]

I've only dealt with Steve once, and he was very knowledgeable and a complete gentleman the whole way through.

I'm sure he wasn't trying to be deceptive or dishonest....I'm sure one of two things are going to happen...1. Something will be revealed and the watch will be deemed original, OR 2. Steve will stand by his product and customer.

[aboen]

Hope it works out of you.
IMO you deserve a full refund, no matter of elapsed time… especially on a misrepresented watch (by mistake, I'm sure)
Surely Steve with make it right though.

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by aboen

Hope it works out of you.
IMO you deserve a full refund, no matter of elapsed time… especially on a misrepresented watch (by mistake, I'm sure)Surely Steve with make it right though.

An "expert" making a mistake?

[aboen]

Originally Posted by MonBK

An "expert" making a mistake?

Everyone makes ‘em. How one handles it is what matters to me.

[MonBK]

Originally Posted by aboen

Everyone makes ‘em. How one handles it is what matters to me.

Agree, I clearly remember making one in 1969.

[conrail]

Originally Posted by aboen

Hope it works out of you.
IMO you deserve a full refund, no matter of elapsed time… especially on a misrepresented watch (by mistake, I'm sure)
Surely Steve with make it right though.

Let's stop throwing around the word "misrepresented." The ad doesn't say original or that the dial came w/ the watch. I don't recall, but I don't think the conversation as to oriignality came up (correct me if I'm wrong) until AFTER the sale had happened. And even then, what Steve told the OP personally is his opinion only that it is original to the watch. Reasonable minds can differ as to whether that dial should have come with the watch, unless this is one of those rare vintage Rolex bright lines?

[jmp909]

Originally Posted by conrail

Let's stop throwing around the word "misrepresented." The ad doesn't say original or that the dial came w/ the watch. I don't recall, but I don't think the conversation as to oriignality came up (correct me if I'm wrong) until AFTER the sale had happened. And even then, what Steve told the OP personally is his opinion only that it is original to the watch. Reasonable minds can differ as to whether that dial should have come with the watch, unless this is one of those rare vintage Rolex bright lines?

Looking at the ad I don't think it is unreasonable to assume that the watch is in its original state. I would hope that a seller would make any modifications or non-original parts very clear in his ad. This is a case where more information should have been provided up front but the burden is on the seller to represent the piece correctly, not for the buyer to ask questions about everything on the watch that would otherwise be assumed.

[newsboy]

Whether the warranty time has elapsed or not the seller should offer a full refund especially on this watch.
Period

[pawnshopkiller]

You are using the forum to manipulate your desired outcome which isn't in accordance with the terms stated in the sale

[Pep04]

Originally Posted by pawnshopkiller

You are using the forum to manipulate your desired outcome which isn't in accordance with the terms stated in the sale

I read through the whole thread and while I know NOTHING about vintage watches let alone sales, I will not give an opinion to that regard.

However, since you have offered your opinion on the matter when you don't have a dog in this fight (pressumably), I feel that you could receive opinions on your posts.

You are coming off a bit defensive and strong for a member that himself has many watches on the For Sale forum. I, for one, would be scared to enter into any business dealing with you when it is clear you will stonewall the buyer should there be any discrepancy. The seller is ALWAYS going to be a seller and should ALWAYS make the customer happy. Unless the buyer is trying to scam you, you should ALWAYS make sure the buyer is happy. It is sound business practice. I have been in business since I left high school and it has always been my business philosophy which has carried me fairly far.



Take what I say for what it is worth and not a criticism. Step back and do yourself a favor. I highly doubt you are gaining any customer's trust with your posts. Notice the Moscos, DavidSWs etc have steered clear of this controversy like they do all others.

[pawnshopkiller]

Originally Posted by Pep04

I read through the whole thread and while I know NOTHING about vintage watches let alone sales, I will not give an opinion to that regard.

However, since you have offered your opinion on the matter when you don't have a dog in this fight (pressumably), I feel that you could receive opinions on your posts.

You are coming off a bit defensive and strong for a member that himself has many watches on the For Sale forum. I, for one, would be scared to enter into any business dealing with you when it is clear you will stonewall the buyer should there be any discrepancy. The seller is ALWAYS going to be a seller and should ALWAYS make the customer happy. Unless the buyer is trying to scam you, you should ALWAYS make sure the buyer is happy. It is sound business practice. I have been in business since I left high school and it has always been my business philosophy which has carried me fairly far.



Take what I say for what it is worth and not a criticism. Step back and do yourself a favor. I highly doubt you are gaining any customer's trust with your posts. Notice the Moscos, DavidSWs etc have steered clear of this controversy like they do all others.

You have no idea who you are talking to. I have more watches then most sellers here. I have a Shop in my community where my reputation is strong and flawless so I could care less if you wouldn't buy a watch from me as I don't need the forum to sell anything.


Steve is my friend and I myself have just went through a ordeal shipping a watch into the USA and had it stopped by customs and had to pay Duties and taxes which is exactly what will happen to Steve if this fella who didn't do his homework before he bought a watch and then didn't bother to inspect it for a month returns the watch...





So say what you will at the end of the day most of the people reading this will still be a wanna be or a hater and I will still have 64 Rolex watches.

[Andad]

Originally Posted by pawnshopkiller

You have no idea who you are talking to. I have more watches then most sellers here. I have a Shop in my community where my reputation is strong and flawless so I could care less if you wouldn't buy a watch from me as I don't need the forum to sell anything.


Steve is my friend and I myself have just went through a ordeal shipping a watch into the USA and had it stopped by customs and had to pay Duties and taxes which is exactly what will happen to Steve if this fella who didn't do his homework before he bought a watch and then didn't bother to inspect it for a month returns the watch...


So say what you will at the end of the day most of the people reading this will still be a wanna be or a hater and I will still have 64 Rolex watches.

I am sure we have ALL worked out who we are talking to Roscoe.

You need to lighten up, back off and let Steve sort this out when he comes back. You are not helping your friend and your 70%/80% refund policy didn't impress me but hey your not just in it for the money - right.

[nch209]

Interesting points. I hope both sides can come to terms.

[Pep04]

Originally Posted by pawnshopkiller

You have no idea who you are talking to. I have more watches then most sellers here. I have a Shop in my community where my reputation is strong and flawless so I could care less if you wouldn't buy a watch from me as I don't need the forum to sell anything.


Steve is my friend and I myself have just went through a ordeal shipping a watch into the USA and had it stopped by customs and had to pay Duties and taxes which is exactly what will happen to Steve if this fella who didn't do his homework before he bought a watch and then didn't bother to inspect it for a month returns the watch...





So say what you will at the end of the day most of the people reading this will still be a wanna be or a hater and I will still have 64 Rolex watches.

You're right I am wrong. I apologize. Congrats on the 64 Rolexes. For someone not needing this "silly" forum, you seem to bump your ads a whole lot. And I mean A WHOLE LOT. I'm sure it doesn't mean anything though.


And for the record, I have NOTHING against pawnshop owners or workers. As I see it, you are making a living and solving someone's problem. Some might not like the process but customers walk into pawnshops on their own. Don't like it, don't borrow money. So, I don't "hate". I really could not careless.

[pawnshopkiller]

...

[psv]

Steve M. clearly states the linked FS ad:

"5 day no questions asked return policy (no time limit on issues of authenticity,However the odds on there bieng any non Rolex parts are next to zero,I thouroghly inspect each and every watch that I sell)"

There is considerable testimony stating that dial doesn't appear to be correct and/or original with regards to the serial number of this particular watch, thus it is now up to Steve to prove the contrary at this point in my opinion. If he doesn't want to get involved in that process he should simply refund the watch per his stated refund policy.

It is as simple as that in my book. Otherwise it should be noted to presumptive buyers that Steve M doesn't adhere to his own policies and stated business rules, however, I'm fairly certain that the parties will work this one out as one's reputation is all that counts in this business. Best of luck and keep us posted.

[conrail]

Originally Posted by psv

Steve M. clearly states the linked FS ad:

"5 day no questions asked return policy (no time limit on issues of authenticity,However the odds on there bieng any non Rolex parts are next to zero,I thouroghly inspect each and every watch that I sell)"

There is considerable testimony stating that dial doesn't appear to be correct and/or original with regards to the serial number of this particular watch, thus it is now up to Steve to prove the contrary at this point in my opinion. If he doesn't want to get involved in that process he should simply refund the watch per his stated refund policy.

It is as simple as that in my book. Otherwise it should be noted to presumptive buyers that Steve M doesn't adhere to his own policies and stated business rules, however, I'm fairly certain that the parties will work this one out as one's reputation is all that counts in this business. Best of luck and keep us posted.

He clearly states "authenticity" not "originality" - big difference. Nothing has been raised to question that it is a genuine Rolex dial.

[inspires]

Originally Posted by conrail

He clearly states "authenticity" not "originality" - big difference. Nothing has been raised to question that it is a genuine Rolex dial.

Sorry but I'd have to disagree, as now we are playing with the semantics of picking and choosing words. I highly doubt that Steve would use this as an excuse for not offering a refund.

I have to agree that much due diligence is required before buying vintage, but I also empathize that the buyer relied on a 'trusted' seller to be upfront and knowledgable of what was sold. As a 'trusted' seller and known vintage dealer there should have been more transparent communication and knowledge passed throughout the sale. Just my 2 cents.

[conrail]

Originally Posted by inspires

Sorry but I'd have to disagree, as now we are playing with the semantics of picking and choosing words. I highly doubt that Steve would use this as an excuse for not offering a refund.

I have to agree that much due diligence is required before buying vintage, but I also empathize that the buyer relied on a 'trusted' seller to be upfront and knowledgable of what was sold. As a 'trusted' seller and known vintage dealer there should have been more transparent communication and knowledge passed throughout the sale. Just my 2 cents.

Well there is a big difference between those two words, and its a pretty clear difference. Authentic = genuine Rolex part. Original = came out of the factory on that watch or at least is correct to the time period. A watch can easily be a 100% genuine Rolex watch but not original (e.g., dial swapped out at some point, hands changed, etc... but still 100% Rolex product).

I don't think he's playing semantics with his words - he is clear this is a genuine Rolex product or he'll take it back anytime. He may or may not be passing judgement on the originality of the watch.

[RolexWatcher]

Originally Posted by inspires

Sorry but I'd have to disagree, as now we are playing with the semantics of picking and choosing words. I highly doubt that Steve would use this as an excuse for not offering a refund.

I have to agree that much due diligence is required before buying vintage, but I also empathize that the buyer relied on a 'trusted' seller to be upfront and knowledgable of what was sold. As a 'trusted' seller and known vintage dealer there should have been more transparent communication and knowledge passed throughout the sale. Just my 2 cents.

1+ on this as well.

You need to be upfront and knowledgeable of what was sold, whether new or vintage.

[bewithabob]

Gosh,this is a disappointing story. I hope Steve weighs in here soon, and provides a satisfactory alternative. There is risk now in shipping back to the US, which makes the situation murky for both parties.

[theloxmyth]

Sorry for the interruption, but where does it state "matte" in the advert.

I see only "maxi."

"FS-Full set 5513 MAXI Submariner ND..box-papers-booklets-band..etc..7k
BEAUTIFUL is too understated to describe MY feelings about this watch..but most of you know that the 5513 has been my favorite watch to sell/collect and heck..even just to talk about!
the 5513 was really the first sports rolex that was produced in abundanced and priced so that even the working class gents of the time could realistically afford to buy one(with a tiny bit of saving upo)
It has the widest and most varied spectrum of dial styles and is just affordable enough to attempt to own one of each!
anyways..here we have a great example 5513 with nice thick case,nice strong movement keeping good time,nerly mint dial with lovely light yellow patina on the matching hands and hour plots
maxi dial
8 million series case
93150 bracelet
box (inner and outer)
papers
booklets
paperwork envelope
and finally a signed photograph of the famouse wound that tried to annihilate the Mulholland!..lol
(just kidding..you DONT want to see it!)
7K u.s. currency and includes Insured world-wide shipping(international customers may experience some difficulties in returns ,so please ask any questions before you commit..I dont mind answering them,it's my job!..lol)
5 day no questions asked return policy (no time limit on issues of authenticity,However the odds on there bieng any non Rolex parts are next to zero,I thouroghly inspect each and every watch that I sell)"

Regards,

[psv]

I realized that as well, but then we're opening a whole another can of worm. I know Steve, and a bunch of other sellers, on VRF argue that a Rolex can be constructed by various parts and be sold as "original" and "authentic" while others, like me, feel that it is a bit of a Franken-watch, cobbled together by parts as the watch actually never came out of Bienne factory in the first place. But back to this thread.

My view on this particular deal, as the fact appears until now, hasn't changed.

[conrail]

Originally Posted by psv

I realized that as well, but then we're opening a whole another can of worm. I know Steve, and a bunch of other sellers, on VRF argue that a Rolex can be constructed by various parts and be sold as "original" and "authentic" while others, like me, feel that it is a bit of a Franken-watch, cobbled together by parts as the watch actually never came out of Bienne factory in the first place. But back to this thread.

My view on this particular deal, as the fact appears until now, hasn't changed.

Yea its def a murky area with few bright lines. Unless and until Rolex publishes the definitive guide, which I don't think they will because they probably can't - our best resources are the various forums (fora?) :)

[perpetualman88]

As many have stated when it comes to vintage watches many things are argued even amongst top experts when dealing with "originality" and "authenticity"

When buying vintage pieces it is good to ask the seller many questions regarding what their views of originality and authenticity is when it comes to vintage pieces in general. This will give the buyer an idea if the sellers views of originality and authenticity parallel theirs

Hope SM chimes in soon

[theloxmyth]

Originally Posted by perpetualman88

As many have stated when it comes to vintage watches many things are argued even amongst top experts when dealing with "originality" and "authenticity"

When buying vintage pieces it is good to ask the seller many questions regarding what their views of originality and authenticity is when it comes to vintage pieces in general. This will give the buyer an idea if the sellers views of originality and authenticity parallel theirs

Hope SM chimes in soon

"We are presently in New York city for the IWJG show"

I e-mailed him about his "wound picture." That's all.

[sdwtchlvr]

This seems to be quite a mess. If it were me, I would exchange the watch for something else that satisfies as being original and authentic and chalk it up as a lessoned learned. Vintage can indeed be tricky. I'd bet it's safe to say that there are a lot more vintage pieces out there with replacement service parts or "swapped" parts than all original examples. There is just no way to know, even if everything on the watch is period correct. Unless you buy from the original owner or you are the original owner.

That isn't to say that the seller shouldn't stand by his product...especially a well known, respected seller. If something was marketed with specifics and priced accordingly, then that is what should have been delivered. The seller is saying the dial is original to the watch and I suppose he's challenging anyone to come up with hard facts to say otherwise. Would Rolex know what dial originally came with this watch? Perhaps a service center could research that for you if you took it in for service.