Box & Papers on Vintage Rolex

[BawlaDK]

Hi guys

Just kind of wondering how much you think something like original box and papers does for the value on e.g Red submariners or DRSD's?

I know that on newer watches it is less important for people - But in terms of vintage I am hearing more and more about dramatic priceincreases when boxes and papers follow a certain watch. If I look at vintage Daytonas and DRSD we are talking thousands of dollars in pricedifference. Will it stay that way and keep increasing, as supply of these complete sets becomes more and more scarse? Or will it stay the same for years to come?

I am just curious as I just sold my own red sub, at what I would call a VERY fair price (close to 10K EUR) which was totally complete, but had battlescars here and there...

Thanks

/Morten

[Vincent65]

IMHO: on, for example a red sub, it usually adds $1-2k because you pay a premium not just for the box and papers, per se, but the fact that it's a complete set.

Edit - do you have pics of the one you just sold?

[Clay]

When I first entered this hobby you could be prepared to spend from 10 to 20% more for Box and papers...
Unfortunately now I have seen people asking as much as a 100% premium...
Now that's an extreme case, but you get the idea...

[tedscott3]

Adds 10-20% in my opinion.

[kooltzar]

Just the original punched paper should add something. What is a full set? Boxes and booklets can be taken from other watches, you are never sure whether they came with the watch you buy. Just the original punched paper will give you some assurance of the originality of the watch. Now, I say a watch should come with papers as a norm and that should be the normal benchmark price. If it is missing, then the watch has a reduced value. Not the other way round! Regarding red subs, we face a problem anyway: I dare to say that red over white dials never existed originally and are just an invention of vintage sellers, so so called mark II and mark IV dials are a creation of the market ( I am wondering how many bangs I get for this theory). On the other hand, I cannot understand why the double red sea dwellers cost more than the withe ones, as they are much more DRSD's around, but the market sometimes reacts strangely. Also, all this fabricated milsubs that are around that do not justify their value. There, you really need the military provenance papers, otherwise they should be worth nothing. Papers are for proper authentication and should be the rule, not the extra.

[HL65]

Very rarely do you see pristine examples complete with box and papers etc. There was a time pre a certain seller not to be named that they commanded huge premiums when you did. For me I could care less now and most important thing is buying the very best example of watch you can find. I will always pay a premium for superlative example of watch and can promise your have never worn papers or box on my wrist or any other part of body. So--it is all about the watch and I love really NICE watches!! Cheers,

PS. And I always buy from trusted sellers I know and have worked with! And it is much better to have minty watch than a mediocre watch with box and papers unless you like to sit home and stare at box and papers and keep watch in drawer or safe.

[BawlaDK]

Well I can only speak for my own recently sold 1680. It came with original box, punched certificate and all accessories in terms of booklets, chronometer translation etc. Furthermore 2 service certificates from the late 70's and early 80's were also enclosed. I knew the history of the watch but had no documentation for it - Not sure if that matters. Anyway I was just comparing my sale price with other similar worn watches with no box or papers and it just seemed that I got a very little extra for the full set. The watch was in good running condition, but had battlescars from 40 years of use. This was of course taken into consideration upon sale and I DID get more than I probably would have if I did not have the box and papers. It seems to me that there are extremely few complete sets available and the ones where the watch is in MINT condition fetch insane prices - Yet still watches in somewhat worn condition but with B&P also demand higher prices than what I got for mine..... Anyhow - as far as I can see from various salespoints it seems that 10K EUR (12,5K USD) for a complete set is the absolute minimum price, so I suppose i got an okay price......

[kooltzar]

Just with regard to price: an average too good condition red sub without papers goes for around 6500 to 8000 Euros and one with papers starts at 7000 going up to 9000 Euros sometimes, but not for 10k, that was a particularly good deal you made. Probably a meters first MkI.

[kooltzar]

.. but true, sometimes they ask more for it, even without papers. I have seen some also for 15k.

[HL65]

Originally Posted by kooltzar

Just with regard to price: an average too good condition red sub without papers goes for around 6500 to 8000 Euros and one with papers starts at 7000 going up to 9000 Euros sometimes, but not for 10k, that was a particularly good deal you made. Probably a meters first MkI.

Mk1 Red Sub with box and papers for $12,500 USD now that is quite funny.

[BawlaDK]

one with papers starts at 7000 going up to 9000 Euros sometimes, but not for 10k, that was a particularly good deal you made

Eeeerh....??? 7K EUR for pieces with papers? Never have I seen one? Feel free to tell me where these can be found.... Maybe in Switzerland from time to time, but in the EU there are none below 10K EUR??? They start from 12K.

Mine was a MK IV....

[springer]

A nice red Submariner with original box and papers can be significantly more expensive than one without. Much more than a 10% premium for one selling without the warranty paper and accessories. Usually you can figure a 25-30% premium for comparable watches when one has original box, papers, booklets etc. When ANYTHING becomes collectible, the more original it is, to include boxes, accessories and papers etc., the more valuable the item. Doesn't matter if it is red Submariner or a GI Joe.

Additional, this topic is discussed here almost monthly. If you do a search of the forum, you'll find many answers and opinions on this topic.

[BawlaDK]

Here is a pic of the one I sold. Dial and hands were MINT condition - bezel original and nicely faded. Bracelet was a later 93150 / 580 combo also in mint condition with no stretch to speak of. Case was polished, but hadn't been for many many years. Had a few bumps and bruises here and there, but overall nice. It was running extremely precise (more than any new Rolex i own)... Crown guards were in good condition..

[Pete17]

Originally Posted by SteelerFan65

Very rarely do you see pristine examples complete with box and papers etc. There was a time pre a certain seller not to be named that they commanded huge premiums when you did. For me I could care less now and most important thing is buying the very best example of watch you can find. I will always pay a premium for superlative example of watch and can promise your have never worn papers or box on my wrist or any other part of body. So--it is all about the watch and I love really NICE watches!! Cheers,

PS. And I always buy from trusted sellers I know and have worked with! And it is much better to have minty watch than a mediocre watch with box and papers unless you like to sit home and stare at box and papers and keep watch in drawer or safe.

Well said mate.
The veracity of papers is not what it once was. I wouldn't pay any extra for them these days.

As always, get the best watch, not the best package

After the

[Robbyvm]

Originally Posted by kooltzar

Just with regard to price: an average too good condition red sub without papers goes for around 6500 to 8000 Euros and one with papers starts at 7000 going up to 9000 Euros sometimes, but not for 10k, that was a particularly good deal you made. Probably a meters first MkI.

Where is this MKI with b&p for 10K, i'll come and get it today !

[Vincent65]

Originally Posted by BawlaDK

Here is a pic of the one I sold. Dial and hands were MINT condition - bezel original and nicely faded. Bracelet was a later 93150 / 580 combo also in mint condition with no stretch to speak of. Case was polished, but hadn't been for many many years. Had a few bumps and bruises here and there, but overall nice. It was running extremely precise (more than any new Rolex i own)... Crown guards were in good condition..

that's a nice one - shame you sold it!

[Vincent65]

a great 1680 RED, full set, f-first is @ $15K USD these days

[alanbass]

Nice one up for sale on ebay with box and paperwork:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Rolex-S...item416fd8bfc3

[Jason de Beijing]

box and paper I think is icing on the cake. The premium is the price difference between two watches of the same quality but one with B&P and one without. Actually boxes are not worth much, only the original papers matter. In the world where there are lots of fakes around, original paper including RSC receipts do add a lot of value. I think 20% premium is reasonable. Higher than that would lure fakers to forge papers.

[kooltzar]

Originally Posted by Robbyvm

Where is this MKI with b&p for 10K, i'll come and get it today !

Was just a joking guess why he could get 10k Euros for his worn red sub.

[Tools]

You should always buy the best watch example you can afford.. The box and papers are secondary..

You should not get a ratty watch just because it has a box and paper if a prime example is sitting right next to it.. What you choose to pay extra for the box and paper, if original to the watch, is up to you and changes over time. You should not pay more than the going market value..

However, if you are not collecting such things (complete sets), then I believe that searching for a watch with box and papers is, perhaps, not the best use of money or time. Wearing and enjoying the watch may be the most important aspect to the typical enthusiast.

As mentioned....... most of the watches out there do not come with authentic boxes or paperwork.. Don't frustrate yourself unless those things are important to you..

[Kobin]

Bought a wonderful Red, no papers, no box, don't care. Having said that I knew I could trust the seller.

For me the true value of this watch is the wrist time.