Can anybody identify these vintage stainless submariners?

[James West]

Can you identify either of these vintage stainless submariners?

The two photos in exhibit 1 are the same watch, just under different lighting to expose more detail on the right side version.

Exhibit 2 is a DIFFERENT watch than exhibit 1.

I do not have access to the actual watches and can't provide any better quality images.

I am trying to identify the MODEL NUMBER and YEAR(S) of production for each watch?

Anybody have any idea?

Thank you kindly

Jim

[Gurmot]

Hi Jim,

I'm no expert but these look like vintage 50's subs. A couple of years ago, I put together a 1 page ID sheet to help me when I was first looking to buy an old sub. It's not very detailed and may even be wrong but it may be a start for you.

It looks like the one on the left is a 6538 and the on one the right is a 5508, both from 1950's I believe. I'm sure you can google the ref numbers and find better info.

Cheers - Simon

[SPACE-DWELLER]

First one COULD be a Seiko?

Second one? Tough!....Omega??

Last one? Beats me!




Seriously, Simon seems to be bang on, but could you post some better pics, please?

[pwrslider]

Last one's either an Invicta...or a Icantseeit.

[Gurmot]

Here are some words to go with the pics. Again, I don't claim that this is accurate, just hope it is of some help.

S

[SPACE-DWELLER]

Wow, that is great info, Simon!

Thanks for sharing!

[Gurmot]

Happy to help Bo, and to return something too.

Here's the info in a more readable format. I can't claim any credit for this info as it is something I came across a while ago and stored for future use. Apologies and thanks to the orignal source.

Following are the various Submariner vintage models (by case number):

6200 - Original Submariner
Launched in 1953. Depth rated to 200m (660 ft) with an 8mm crown. No crown guard and no depth rating on dial. Submariner not printed on dial. Dial similar to Explorer style dials of same period. Non-Chronometer A296 movement with 18 Jewels. Larger case than the 6204 or 6205. Larger crown marked Brevet.
Updated in 1955. Depth rated to 200m (660 ft) with an 8mm crown. No crown guard and no depth rating on dial. Submariner printed on dial. Included the Mercedes hands. Non-Chronometer A296 movement with 18 Jewels. Larger case than the 6536 or 6538. Larger crown marked Brevet.

6204 - Launched in two versions
Launched in 1954. Depth rated to 100m (330 ft) with a 6mm crown. No crown guard and no depth rating on dial. Submariner printed on dial. Dial revised from 6200. Used the upgraded non-chronometer A260 movement with 18 Jewels. Smaller than the 6200.
Updated in 1954. Depth rated to 100m (330 ft) with a 6mm crown. No crown guard and no depth rating on dial. Model name "blacked-out." Non-Chronometer A260 movement with 18 Jewels. Smaller than the 6200

6205 - Launched in 1954. Depth rated to 100m (330 ft) with a 6mm crown. No crown guard and no depth rating on dial. Model name not present on dial. Dial revised from

6200 - Used the upgraded A260 movement. Same size as the 6204. Smaller than the 6200
Updated in 1955. Depth rated to 100m (330 ft) with 6mm crown. No crown guard however depth rating now printed on dial (white). Model name present on dial. A260 movement. Smaller than the 6200

6536 - Launched in 1955. Upgrade of the 6205 model. Depth rated to 100m (330 ft) with the 8mm crown. No crown guard and no depth rating on dial. Submariner printed on dial. First time use of the Mercedes hands. Movement upgraded to the non-chronometer 1030 with 25 Jewels. Updated in 1956. Depth rated to 100m (330 ft) with a 8mm crown. No crown guard however depth rating now printed on dial (white). Submariner also printed on dial. Non-Chronometer 1030 movement. First time Bezel contained markers for first 15 minutes.

6536/1 - Launched in 1956. Depth rated to 100m (330 ft) with a 8mm crown. No crown guard with depth rating printed on dial (white). Model name also present on dial. Chronometer 1030 movement with 25 Jewels. Bezel with markers for first 15 minutes. Triangle on Bezel painted red.

6538 - James Bond Submariner (Dr. No)
Launched in 1955. Upgrade of the 6204 model. Depth rated to 100m (330 ft) with the 6mm crown. No crown guard and no depth rating on dial. Model name present on dial. Used the upgraded A260 movement.
Updated in 1956. Depth rated to 200m (660 ft) with 8mm crown. No crown guard with depth rating printed on dial (white). Model name also present on dial. Upgraded to the 1030 movement. Case upgraded to same size as the
6200 (larger). Updated in 1956. Depth rated to 200m (660 ft) with 8mm crown. No crown guard with depth rating printed on dial (white). Model name also present on dial. 'Officially Certified Chronometer' now painted on dial. 1030 movement.

5508 - Launched in 1958. Upgrade to the 6536/1 model. Depth rated to 100m (330 ft) with 6mm crown. No crown guard and depth rating on always printed on dial. Model name printed on dial. Upgraded to the new Chronometer 1530 movement. Updated in 1964. Luminous markers not enclosed by circular border.

5510 - Launched in 1958. Upgrade to the 6200 model. Depth rated to 200m (660 ft) with the 8mm crown. No crown guard and depth rating printed on dial. Submariner printed on dial. New Chronometer 1530 movement.
Updated in 1964. Depth rated to 200m (660 ft) with the 8mm crown. No crown guard. Depth rating printed on dial. Printing on dial changed to white.

5512 - Launched in 1959. Depth rated to 200m (660 ft) with 8mm crown. Crown guard. Depth rating printed on dial. Chronometer. 'Officially Certified Chronometer' printed on dial. Submariner printed on dial. New 1560 Chronometer movement. Updated in 1965. Depth rating to 660 ft (200m) with 8mm crown. Crown guard. Depth rating printed on dial. Superlative added to printing on dial.

5513 - James Bond Submariner (Live and Let Die)
Launched in 1962. Depth rated to 200m (660 ft) with 8mm crown. Crown guard. Depth rating printed on dial. Non-Chronometer. 1530 movement. Dial marked with Swiss. Updated in 1963. Depth rating to 660 ft (200m) with 8mm crown. Non-Chronometer 1520 movement. Swiss T<25 printed on dial.
Navy model launched in 1968. Depth rated to 660 ft (200m) with 8mm crown. Crown guard. Soldered strap bars. Large hour and minute hands. Large T printed above depth rating to indicate luminous material as tritium.

5517 - Launched in 1971 for the British Marines. Depth rated to 660 ft (200m) with 8mm crown. Crown guard. Crown with triple-lock. Bezel with 60 minute markers. Soldered strap bars. Large hour and minute hands. Large T printed above depth rating to indicate luminous material as tritium.

1680 - Launched in 1966. Depth rated to 660 ft (200m) with 8mm crown. Crown guard. Depth rating printed on dial. Chronometer. New 1575 Chronometer movement with Date. Raised and flat crystal. Submariner printed in red. Updated in 1972. Depth rated to 660 ft (200m) with 8mm crown. Crown guard. Crown with triple-lock. Depth rating printed on dial. Chronometer. 1575 Chronometer movement with Date. Raised and flat crystal. All dial lettering printed in white.

16800 - Launched in 1982. Depth rated to 1000 ft (300m) with 8mm crown. Crown guard. Crown with triple-lock. Depth rating printed on dial. Chronometer. New 3085 Chronometer movement with Date. Low-profile sapphire crystal. All dial lettering printed in white.

[2careless]

Are we asked to do CSI here? Was there a murder to be solved?
The terms you used are very weird... Exhibits... sounds like a court case or what?

My humble opinion is that Exhibit 1 is a 6202 - Turn-o-graph and not a sub. Note that there seems to be only 1 line above 6 o'clock mark. Submariners have 2 lines or more. Also, you can see from the left pic 2 slightly dimmer locations one after another, fitting the "TURN-O-GRAPH" signature (the 2 '-') .
Also, the bezel is very thin, doesn't look like a sub bezel. There are minute markings all around the bezel, unlike sub's 15 min marking only, as well as missing the sub's pearl dot.

Exhibit 2 can be anything. Too blurry to identify...

Now, where's my commission/ "expert" witness fee?

Was the hand in these pictures Jacques Cousteau's?

[pwrslider]

Hey Mods.....

Any chance of getting Gurmots info put as a sticky???

[Trurolexer]

Nice info,Simon!!! I always love Submariner info...

[swatty]

I think Jocke should test them

[SPACE-DWELLER]

Simon, I'd add this info in the Rolex Reference Library > "The Rolex Submariner (vintage) thread.

You can readily post it there, but just have to be approved by a mod first. It will then appear after some time.

[Gurmot]

Thanks for the suggestion Bo. This info has now been posted in the vintage reference section.

Funny how I see myself as coming here to learn and I end up contributing. It feels good to put something back as other members, especially you Bo, seem to give so much.

I guess this is what this forum is about -

[jac67]

Originally Posted by 2careless

My humble opinion is that Exhibit 1 is a 6202 - Turn-o-graph and not a sub.

I totally agree with Kai, the first is a Turn-O-Graph 6202, the second looks like a Big Crown Sub.


John.

[mike]

Originally Posted by jac67

I totally agree with Kai, the first is a Turn-O-Graph 6202, the second looks like a Big Crown Sub.


John.

X3.

[Beef]

Thanks for the great info Simon. A very concise timeline with all the important points. I'm glad you reposted it "in the clear." I was going cross-eyed trying to read the small fuzzy print. I figured that you had posted it that way to "retaliate" for the fuzzy photos posted by James West.

[Subfiend]

Originally Posted by jac67

I totally agree with Kai, the first is a Turn-O-Graph 6202, the second looks like a Big Crown Sub.


John.

x4. Turn-O-Graph on the left (you can tell by the bezel insert). Big Crown Sub, probably a 5510 on the right. Both are from the mid to late 1950s.

Turn-O-Graph



5510

[Beef]

Great pics Subfiend. What type aircraft is shown? Buff? Great 5510. The bezel and dial are in great shape. Thanks for posting.

[Subfiend]

That is astronaut Michael Collins training for Gemini. The 5510 shot is not mine (borrowed from another forum).

[Beef]

Originally Posted by Subfiend

That is astronaut Michael Collins training for Gemini. The 5510 shot is not mine (borrowed from another forum).

Thanks. I couldn't figure out if it was a radar/nav/weapons officer in a Cold War bomber or what. I knew it wasn't a regular cockpit shot.

[James West]

Thank you everybody for all your great answers but I am even more confused about a few things. Maybe you can clear up my confusion on two points?

1. What is a Turn-o-graph? It sure looks a lot like a submariner. Was it a model that existed before the Submariner? or at the same time? I tried to find out about the history of the Turn-o-graph and I can't find anything. I only found this image which looks extremely similar to the watch in exhibit 1.

2. In the photo of Michael Collins it is from Gemini 10 in 1966, and Michael Collins was also a crew member onboard Apollo 11 when it landed on the moon. As I understand it Omega is considered to be the first watch on the moon and I don't challenge that, but I am trying to understand if NASA and the astronauts were so crazy about Omega, then what is the crew member of the Moon landing Apollo doing wearing a Rolex Turn-O-Graph?

Any insight would be greatly appreciated.