Why is buying a car so hard/insulting?

[cedargrove]

Originally Posted by Desibaba

It doesn't matter if you sell Kias or Rolls Royces this is usually true in my experience.

Do you really need a sign to remind you that when a customer is done with you, they will likely let you know in a tactful manner?

I'd like to think the sign concludes "therefore graciously let the customer move on", but I'm sure it means quite the opposite.

[Desibaba]

Originally Posted by cedargrove

Really? Your example of customer deception is when they say they are "just looking" and then end up buying a car? I think that's the kind of lying most sales people would welcome. Get real.

I love customers that say that to me. Usually they end up leaving with a car My point was that customers lie and I have seen the completely honest type salesmen who come in this business and somehow think profit is a dirty word. 9 times out of 10 they end up going back to their old job after they get fired that pays them only a $50k a car year salary. Whatever you do for a living you are allowed to make a profit aren't you?

[Watchflair]

Originally Posted by Knappo 1307

Certainly wasn't "Belly Aching", and absolutely nothing wrong with negotiating. My point was many people don't like the whole back and forth to the sale manager, waiting, and then piling on extras after a deal is made ie: gap insurance, different types of extended warranties. As far as your comparison of buying a watch, to buying a car, I'e never had a bad experience ever buying a Watch and never had to wait around for hours while the salesperson had to go speak to a manager about a discount. Maybe I've just been lucky, but the comparison of buying a watch to buying a car is not a good one. IMHO...

Lol clearly you've never been to a Tourneau.

The idea is that there is usually a negotiation on any high ticket item be it a car, watch, house or even take it to the level of a repair or renovation on a car or house.

As far as BS add on items and hidden fees, I totally agree with you.





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[Knappo 1307]

Originally Posted by Desibaba

I love customers that say that to me. Usually they end up leaving with a car My point was that customers lie and I have seen the completely honest type salesmen who come in this business and somehow think profit is a dirty word. 9 times out of 10 they end up going back to their old job after they get fired that pays them only a $50k a car year salary. Whatever you do for a living you are allowed to make a profit aren't you?

You just said this, does this mean most salespeople are not honest? These are your words. So I'm curious, do you need to be dishonest to be a successful car salesperson?

[cedargrove]

Originally Posted by Desibaba

I love customers that say that to me. Usually they end up leaving with a car My point was that customers lie and I have seen the completely honest type salesmen who come in this business and somehow think profit is a dirty word. 9 times out of 10 they end up going back to their old job after they get fired that pays them only a $50k a car year salary. Whatever you do for a living you are allowed to make a profit aren't you?

I have no problem with the dealer making a living. I enjoy negotiating and do so with integrity. I won't deal with a d-bag salesperson (in any industry) and have walked away from many. I have also successfully purchased from many who deal fairly and respectfully.

But if I tell you that "I'm just looking", then I either mean that "I'm just looking" or that "I haven't decided if I'm ready to buy, and would like some breathing room to continue looking before making a decision" which technically means I'm still just looking. I certainly wouldn't want to deal with someone who considers that as a lie or me being deceptive.

Frankly it seems that you have convinced yourself that a customer being tactful equals lying and deception, possibly as justification for you to lie and deceive.

[Desibaba]

My girlfriend is a physician's assistant and works at the University of Miami Hospital's Senior Care department. Time and again I hear horror stories of how elderly patients are put on drugs that they don't need or have tests performed on them simply so the company can keep billing medicare when in reality these old people are simply being tortured when they should be moved to hospice.

Do you really think you need every single test that your doctor wants to perform on you or when he wants to put you on drug X its not because the pharmaceutical rep told him to pimp that product to all his patients?

The worse thing I could possibly do to you if you don't know how to negotiate is you will end up paying $470/month for a car that you could have gotten for $450. I sleep well at night and definitely don't have any issues with my conscience.

Maybe some of you should think about what I just said when you take your 90 year old mom to the doctor and listen to his "Recommendations". Who are the real crooks?

[pacific17]

Originally Posted by Wesley Crusher

Buying a car doesn't have to be difficult. Your first mistake is walking into the dealership and negotiating with a salesman.

Do your research and know how much you should pay for the car you want. Email the online sales manager of a few dealerships and let them know the car that you want and how much you're willing to pay. If they can meet your price, you will go in and buy it that day.

I told my dad to do that with his last car purchase and it worked. No hassle. I recently gave the same advice to a coworker and it worked great for him, too.

Thanks for the advice! I will remember this when the time comes again.

[Desibaba]

Originally Posted by Knappo 1307

You just said this, does this mean most salespeople are not honest? These are your words. So I'm curious, do you need to be dishonest to be a successful car salesperson?

I'm still trying to figure out how anyone could NOT be honest if they are working at a big, reputable dealership and want to keep their job? Did your salesman tell you the car has a navigation system and then you realized that it did not have one a week later? Did he tell you the car comes with a 4 year/50k miles warranty when it comes with only 3/36? If he did then he is an embarrassment to the car business and needs to be fired.

Buying a car is relatively straightforward. You come to me and Ill show you the car. There is a window sticker with the MSRP and options on it. If you like the car YOU make an offer where I can earn your business. If you don't like my attitude, the car or the price then simply walk away. Do business only with a dealership that offers a 3 to 5 day return policy in writing if you change your mind. What exactly is so hard about this? We aren't asking Dr Tom to perform brain surgery here

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by Desibaba

I'm still trying to figure out how anyone could NOT be honest if they are working at a big, reputable dealership and want to keep their job? Did your salesman tell you the car has a navigation system and then you realized that it did not have one a week later? Did he tell you the car comes with a 4 year/50k miles warranty when it comes with only 3/36? If he did then he is an embarrassment to the car business and needs to be fired.

:

Yes, they did.

I went to by a Prius in December 2007 when diesel was $5 a gallon and it became cheaper to buy a fuel efficient car than to drive my truck. I told the largest Toyota dealer in my area what options I wanted and it needed to be the 2008 model. We agreed on price, the salesman said they didn't have that one in stock, but would have one in a couple days. Three days later, it's a 2007, none of the agreed upon options, same price - take it or leave it. I left it, and notified the local prosecutors office of their tactics.

I ended up finding the right car in an online search. Called the sales manager, did the deal on the phone, deposit to hold it with Visa, and picked it up the next day. It was cheaper than the home town guy and I didn't have a dirty/sleazy feeling when I left with the new car.

I no longer talk to salesmen. It's the manager or on to the next dealer. If I could buy direct from the factory, I'd never step onto another dealers' premises again.

[Desibaba]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

Yes, they did.

I went to by a Prius in December 2007 when diesel was $5 a gallon and it became cheaper to buy a fuel efficient car than to drive my truck. I told the largest Toyota dealer in my area what options I wanted and it needed to be the 2008 model. We agreed on price, the salesman said they didn't have that one in stock, but would have one in a couple days. Three days later, it's a 2007, none of the agreed upon options, same price - take it or leave it. I left it, and notified the local prosecutors office of their tactics.

I ended up finding the right car in an online search. Called the sales manager, did the deal on the phone, deposit to hold it with Visa, and picked it up the next day. It was cheaper than the home town guy and I didn't have a dirty/sleazy feeling when I left with the new car.

I no longer talk to salesmen. It's the manager or on to the next dealer. If I could buy direct from the factory, I'd never step onto another dealers' premises again.

That should never have happened. You told him exactly what you wanted and if he didnt have it then he should have called you ONLY when he had that car in stock. You should have sent an email or called the General Manager to let him know about your experience. The good thing these days is you have Yelp, Facebook, Google Plus etc that people write reviews on. Look at them. Every business will have a couple of bad reviews but if over 95 percent of them are positive then you shouldn't have an issue doing business with them.

[Star Ferry]

Originally Posted by Desibaba

I love customers that say that to me. Usually they end up leaving with a car My point was that customers lie and I have seen the completely honest type salesmen who come in this business and somehow think profit is a dirty word. 9 times out of 10 they end up going back to their old job after they get fired that pays them only a $50k a car year salary. Whatever you do for a living you are allowed to make a profit aren't you?

By the same token, though, making a profit is not a guaranteed entitlement just for being in business

As a trader of chemicals and physical commodities, one of my favorite sayings is this: "Where there's opacity, there's profit"... That's definitely true in my industry. Our margin is earned due to informational and executional value-add, not simply for standing in the middle of a transaction.

But in the car business, pricing and dealer margins have become pretty transparent, which has lowered profitability. In a climate where few want to pay above invoice, how can a dealership make money? Probably by intentionally obfuscating the process through complicated leasing/financing terms, hidden fees, or alternatively by selling higher margin extras/services.

In my opinion, people aren't angry about the concept of car dealers making a profit. They're mad about the way the profit is made

[Desibaba]

Originally Posted by Star Ferry

In my opinion, people aren't angry about the concept of car dealers making a profit. They're mad about the way the profit is made

The way a dealership survives these days is relatively straightforward. There are 4 ways we make money. The profit on the car, the backend (financing rate, extended warranties, GAP insurance, Appearance Protection, etc), your trade in vehicle and most importantly these days is the incentives the manufacturer gives us for hitting our monthly numbers for new car and certified car sales. If you looked at most of our sales there is almost no profit on the price of the car itself. Usually its a negative deal. But we still take those deals if we can make some money on the backend and its still a car that counts towards our monthly numbers. Most sales we do are "Mini Deals" for the salesman primarily on new cars but its still worth doing those because if I hit my monthly total the dealership will give me a volume bonus for having x amount of cars out. When I worked at Toyota It was common for me to sell 20-25 new cars a month and ALL of them were mini deals because we were just giving them away left n right. I didnt mind because I still got my volume bonus at the end of the month and they usually paid us a "Spiff" (usually $200-$500 extra) for selling old cars that had been sitting around for over 60 days.

[rr-nyc]

Originally Posted by Star Ferry

By the same token, though, making a profit is not a guaranteed entitlement just for being in business

As a trader of chemicals and physical commodities, one of my favorite sayings is this: "Where there's opacity, there's profit"... That's definitely true in my industry. Our margin is earned due to informational and executional value-add, not simply for standing in the middle of a transaction.

But in the car business, pricing and dealer margins have become pretty transparent, which has lowered profitability. In a climate where few want to pay above invoice, how can a dealership make money? Probably by intentionally obfuscating the process through complicated leasing/financing terms, hidden fees, or alternatively by selling higher margin extras/services.

In my opinion, people aren't angry about the concept of car dealers making a profit. They're mad about the way the profit is made

"Where there is opacity, there's profit"...No truer words

The amount of information available to consumers about car pricing makes it very difficult for dealerships to make a profit it once did but while all of that information is available, I think people get pissed off because they still have to negotiate. But if they're unable to negotiate the same price they read about or heard of, they feel like the dealer is being dishonest when that's far from the truth. The truth is, like in most businesses, they're not just going to hand you the best possible price if you are willing to pay more or not negotiating for more.

It's still up to the customer to negotiate the best deal possible.

[Rock]

Originally Posted by Desibaba

The way a dealership survives these days is relatively straightforward. There are 4 ways we make money. The profit on the car, the backend (financing rate, extended warranties, GAP insurance, Appearance Protection, etc), your trade in vehicle and most importantly these days is the incentives the manufacturer gives us for hitting our monthly numbers for new car and certified car sales. If you looked at most of our sales there is almost no profit on the price of the car itself. Usually its a negative deal. But we still take those deals if we can make some money on the backend and its still a car that counts towards our monthly numbers. Most sales we do are "Mini Deals" for the salesman primarily on new cars but its still worth doing those because if I hit my monthly total the dealership will give me a volume bonus for having x amount of cars out. When I worked at Toyota It was common for me to sell 20-25 new cars a month and ALL of them were mini deals because we were just giving them away left n right. I didnt mind because I still got my volume bonus at the end of the month and they usually paid us a "Spiff" (usually $200-$500 extra) for selling old cars that had been sitting around for over 60 days.

This is very enlightening. Puts the whole issue in context. I wouldn't be a very desirable customer as I wouldn't want any extras, financing, insurance, car protection etc and I wouldn't have a trade. If I'm looking for a sale price close to Invoice cost then there's not much in it for the dealer unless they can get a manufacturer incentive.

[jcd]

Originally Posted by Rock

This is very enlightening. Puts the whole issue in context. I wouldn't be a very desirable customer as I wouldn't want any extras, financing, insurance, car protection etc and I wouldn't have a trade. If I'm looking for a sale price close to Invoice cost then there's not much in it for the dealer unless they can get a manufacturer incentive.

Yikes, that's true. And that's the situation I'm in now. Well, I will be financing, but I'll have that all set up with my bank prior to going in, so they'd have to beat that rate.....

[Desibaba]

Originally Posted by Rock

This is very enlightening. Puts the whole issue in context. I wouldn't be a very desirable customer as I wouldn't want any extras, financing, insurance, car protection etc and I wouldn't have a trade. If I'm looking for a sale price close to Invoice cost then there's not much in it for the dealer unless they can get a manufacturer incentive.

I have absolutely no problem with working with a customer like that provided they are FAST and know exactly what they want without wasting too much of my time. Come in at the end of the month and take your car home quickly. It still helps us with our total numbers. Id like to say we give the same amazing customer service experience to everyone but the reality is the customer who we are actually making a profit on will always get treated much better (during and after the sale) than the guy who is stealing the car. I believe this is true in any business. Last I checked we arent the Red Cross or the Salvation Army and customers need to keep that in mind.

[wantonebad]

Originally Posted by Desibaba

I have absolutely no problem with working with a customer like that provided they are FAST and know exactly what they want without wasting too much of my time. Come in at the end of the month and take your car home quickly. It still helps us with our total numbers. Id like to say we give the same amazing customer service experience to everyone but the reality is the customer who we are actually making a profit on will always get treated much better (during and after the sale) than the guy who is stealing the car. I believe this is true in any business. Last I checked we arent the Red Cross or the Salvation Army and customers need to keep that in mind.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm sure that's how your company operates but it does come down to professionalism and leadership. The last part is hysterical though!

As if some slight, perceived or other wise just needs to be taken on the chin. Any idea the repeat biz this may have cost you...

[Desibaba]

Originally Posted by wantonebad

As if some slight, perceived or other wise just needs to be taken on the chin. Any idea the repeat biz this may have cost you...

Most of our customers are repeat customers. You dont stay for 25 years at the top in the world just by accident. We must be doing something right but I appreciate your concern

[wantonebad]

Originally Posted by Desibaba

Most of our customers are repeat customers. You dont stay for 25 years at the top in the world just by accident. We must be doing something right but I appreciate your concern

It's not concern, it's comedy I assure you!

[Knappo 1307]

Originally Posted by Desibaba

I'm still trying to figure out how anyone could NOT be honest if they are working at a big, reputable dealership and want to keep their job? Did your salesman tell you the car has a navigation system and then you realized that it did not have one a week later? Did he tell you the car comes with a 4 year/50k miles warranty when it comes with only 3/36? If he did then he is an embarrassment to the car business and needs to be fired.

Buying a car is relatively straightforward. You come to me and Ill show you the car. There is a window sticker with the MSRP and options on it. If you like the car YOU make an offer where I can earn your business. If you don't like my attitude, the car or the price then simply walk away. Do business only with a dealership that offers a 3 to 5 day return policy in writing if you change your mind. What exactly is so hard about this? We aren't asking Dr Tom to perform brain surgery here

I'm going to bow out of this mess. I think you've proved a lot of peoples points....

[Watchflair]

Yikes- Desibaba I would probably just stop at this point. You are not representing yourself or the automobile retail business in a very positive light. Some of the statements you are making are best kept between your own two ears :)

[swils8610]

I've been following this thread carefully. As you all know I run a Toyota and VW dealership. I can tell you this...I agree the car biz has a terrible reputation. I also agree the car biz has earned that reputation. I can also say that not all car dealerships are bad. The stores I run are honest, ethical and we have integrity. I would not risk or sell my values for a car deal. We are active and support our community in many ways. We have a great work environment with many long term employees. I enjoy my job and it had provided me with a great living. I as do my employees work hard and put in long hours. I also believe profit is not a four letter word. Our company makes a profit as do most companies that are not for profit. We treat our customers who buy cars and those who don't as well as our employees with compassion, respect and with empathy. There is no magic recipe for getting a great deal...I would say if the dealership you walk into doesn't treat you properly or give you the deal you want move onto a different dealership. They don't deserve your business. Everyone deserves to be comfortable and treated with respect...customers and dealership employees alike. I believe some comments here have been a little rough...from me and from others. I apologize. I truly enjoy my forum members and the time spend on TRF. Cheers!

[Desibaba]

Originally Posted by Watchflair

Yikes- Desibaba I would probably just stop at this point. You are not representing yourself or the automobile retail business in a very positive light. Some of the statements you are making are best kept between your own two ears :)

And I apologize for that. Some of the things I posted were more in the heat of the moment and of course I would never say that to a customer who I am dealing with in real life. I just think that sometimes in life we fail to realize there are two sides to every story and some of you at least got to see the behind the scenes look at the car business. Good Luck in your car purchasing journey and always remember you should walk away from a deal you are not comfortable with.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by swils8610

I've been following this thread carefully. As you all know I run a Toyota and VW dealership. I can tell you this...I agree the car biz has a terrible reputation. I also agree the car biz has earned that reputation. I can also say that not all car dealerships are bad. The stores I run are honest, ethical and we have integrity. I would not risk or sell my values for a car deal. We are active and support our community in many ways. We have a great work environment with many long term employees. I enjoy my job and it had provided me with a great living. I as do my employees work hard and put in long hours. I also believe profit is not a four letter word. Our company makes a profit as do most companies that are not for profit. We treat our customers who buy cars and those who don't as well as our employees with compassion, respect and with empathy. There is no magic recipe for getting a great deal...I would say if the dealership you walk into doesn't treat you properly or give you the deal you want move onto a different dealership. They don't deserve your business. Everyone deserves to be comfortable and treated with respect...customers and dealership employees alike. I believe some comments here have been a little rough...from me and from others. I apologize. I truly enjoy my forum members and the time spend on TRF. Cheers!

Well stated Shannon. Your competitors have put you in a position to have to defend your own professional values, which is unfortunate for anyone, really. I've had some pretty bad experiences with dealers, but please be assured I do not cast any of that on your shop.

While I do think the modern American retail business model is moving away from physical stores for many goods, and that I should have the opportunity to buy a car factory direct if I desire, that doesn't mean you are running a bad business. It just means I think the car business needs to evolve with the internet and other retail businesses to provide a more user friendly experience at the physical locations it does operate. Best wishes for continued success.

[Relyt]

I'm just going to have the Amazon drone drop my car off from the air if I order one. Lol.


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[Thatguy]

This is an interesting thread. I have been on both sides of the table for this.

Buying: If you do your homework and go in with a realistic price you want to pay you should be in and out rather quickly. If not find another dealer. Unfortunately most people do not do their homework. So far all comparisons to other industries have been shot down so I will offer another. A lot of Rolex ADs say no discount. I am sure many PM models are sold every day at full MSRP. If you do some research you will find that if you shop around you can get a good discount at some ADs for PM pieces saving thousands of $$.

Selling: It is a tough business. Many customers do not do any research and have no idea what a good deal is, what their credit score is, what their trade is worth and do not know the process. A lot of the time they rank car salesman just below pond scum so when you try to explain things to them they choose not to listen.
There are good and bad dealers out there. People offer up one price for all and it sounds good but I was working for Toyota when they started Scion and the attitude from many customers was that 'we were screwing everybody equally".

Bottom line is if you do some research it should be a painless quick process and even more so for people on this forum as I would guess that most are not the average customer.

[Rock]

A further comment:
It is not an easy process, even IF you do your "research".
The recommended retail price from the Manufacturer's website (which is the closest that the prospective buyer is likely to get to the starting price) is just that - a recommended selling price.
As a buyer I can't possibly know what is realistic offer on a given vehicle at a given time with a particular dealer. It depends on so many variables. It is hard to see how there is any 'universal strategy'. Hard to avoid wasting people's time, other than the suggestion to just email Dealers with a 'proposal' which is a 'shotgun' approach.