Why Rolex releases compromised models sometimes...

[Maxy]

Most of them relate Rolex for being Perfect or near perfect watches and not compromising on anything. But eventually they end up compromising watches by design, by production, by release timings etc. Watch hands are one of the bigger items and Rolex tried to consolidate all the watch models to the same/similar watch hands to produce them together at once(even moving Exp2 to merc hands).


For example: During 214270's release everyone mentioned the usage of short hands on the Explorer. Why does Rolex do it?

As its known knowledge that Rolex produces everything in batches and not year round production. For example for next 6 months they manufacture watch hands for usage for next 3-5 years plan(as they seem it appropriate). So, when they are upgrading all the Subs, GMTs, Explorer 2 from the previous generation watches and they will have stock of watch hands left over from the previous manufacture set. Lets say they have stock of 100K of hour hands which they can't use it any of the new Submariner models. So even knowing that its little short on the dial on 214270, they will use it as to not to waste it such a big stock of hour hands.


Once that stock is over, they don't mind upgrading the hour hands as they did it in 2016.

Air-King 40mm: Same thing, they might have stock 3,6,9 non-lumed numerals of 214270 remaining which they again can't let it go waste. What do they do? They end up using it in the upcoming Air-King 40mm model even it messes up the design horribly and has no place for it on the dial. They still will use it till the stock is completed and once all the complaints are raised all over, they will make another Air-King model without that 3-6-9 and just replace them with 15,.30,..45 on the dial.



New 214270: Again, they consolidated both Air-King and new 214270 watch hands and it ended up looking beefier on the Explorer dial whereas the old Merc hour hand looked elegant. All it needed was little longer hour hand but Rolex compromised by trying to consolidate with the Air-King model.

[997.2]

Interesting theory, got any sources?

[Prism]

Interesting theory but what you fail to mention is that Rolex is swimming in sooo much loot and doesn't have to answer to anyone (being privately owned/foundation) about how much waste it produces that it doesn't have to do anything of what you suggest.

[johneh]

Although I agree that the 3-6-9 looks ridiculous on the AK, I highly doubt that was their reasoning behind using those numbers.

It's not like Rolex designers sit down to design a watch and they have to start by looting the spare parts bin.

[ref1655]

your 'theory' or observation (with examples) makes total sense & it's a primary reason why some collectors are so anal-retentive about first editions/releases.

in retrospect, the 1655 went through several changes along the way from its initial release with different bezels, dials & second hands on subsequent models of the identical genre/design. it's kind of reminiscent of Detroit using leftover/available parts in the production of their automobiles & introducing new alternatives when the need presented itself.

while an MBA might consider it a good business practice from the standpoint of inventory control, to esoteric mindsets it borders on inconsistency of design integrity...especially when/if the alterations & changes offer no substantial performance or aesthetic improvement in the product itself.

[JohnFM]

Good thoughts Maxy. As much as I like the longer hands and lumed numbers on the new Explorer, I do think the trimmer hour hand looked more elegant. The new one looks a little stubby. These are small details, no doubt, but your point is well taken.

[Maxy]

Originally Posted by JohnFM

Good thoughts Maxy. As much as I like the longer hands and lumed numbers on the new Explorer, I do think the trimmer hour hand looked more elegant. The new one looks a little stubby. These are small details, no doubt, but your point is well taken.

Thanks.. Merc hour hand on the older model is so elegant!

Originally Posted by ref1655

your 'theory' or observation (with examples) makes total sense & it's a primary reason why some collectors are so anal-retentive about first editions/releases.

in retrospect, the 1655 went through several changes along the way from its initial release with different bezels, dials & second hands on subsequent models of the identical genre/design. it's kind of reminiscent of Detroit using leftover/available parts in the production of their automobiles & introducing new alternatives when the need presented itself.

while an MBA might consider it a good business practice from the standpoint of inventory control, to esoteric mindsets it borders on inconsistency of design integrity...especially when/if the alterations & changes offer no substantial performance or aesthetic improvement in the product itself.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by johneh

Although I agree that the 3-6-9 looks ridiculous on the AK, I highly doubt that was their reasoning behind using those numbers.

It's not like Rolex designers sit down to design a watch and they have to start by looting the spare parts bin.

Its a business decision.. I don't think designers have anything to say. The same watch hands were shared between multiple watches earlier too. In some models, it touched the minute markers and some models it didn't touch. Do you think designers would intent that way? Unless you use the same hands on every model, you won't get that imperfection.

Originally Posted by Prism

Interesting theory but what you fail to mention is that Rolex is swimming in sooo much loot and doesn't have to answer to anyone (being privately owned/foundation) about how much waste it produces that it doesn't have to do anything of what you suggest.

Every company will worry about the waste production especially if its 100K hands, bezels, etc. Its not a small wastage. Its like Rolex is rich so it will waste couple of million dollars is wrong thinking. They still ended up selling 214270 right? Why would they had thrown that watch hands without any reason? Those who had complaints will buy that watch now. Its a win-win for Rolex eventually.

Originally Posted by 997.2

Interesting theory, got any sources?

No direct sources to share.

[5253Reynolds]

Originally Posted by Maxy

Most of them relate Rolex for being Perfect or near perfect watches and not compromising on anything. But eventually they end up compromising watches by design, by production, by release timings etc. Watch hands are one of the bigger items and Rolex tried to consolidate all the watch models to the same/similar watch hands to produce them together at once(even moving Exp2 to merc hands).


For example: During 214270's release everyone mentioned the usage of short hands on the Explorer. Why does Rolex do it?

As its known knowledge that Rolex produces everything in batches and not year round production. For example for next 6 months they manufacture watch hands for usage for next 3-5 years plan(as they seem it appropriate). So, when they are upgrading all the Subs, GMTs, Explorer 2 from the previous generation watches and they will have stock of watch hands left over from the previous manufacture set. Lets say they have stock of 100K of hour hands which they can't use it any of the new Submariner models. So even knowing that its little short on the dial on 214270, they will use it as to not to waste it such a big stock of hour hands.


Once that stock is over, they don't mind upgrading the hour hands as they did it in 2016.

Air-King 40mm: Same thing, they might have stock 3,6,9 non-lumed numerals of 214270 remaining which they again can't let it go waste. What do they do? They end up using it in the upcoming Air-King 40mm model even it messes up the design horribly and has no place for it on the dial. They still will use it till the stock is completed and once all the complaints are raised all over, they will make another Air-King model without that 3-6-9 and just replace them with 15,.30,..45 on the dial.



New 214270: Again, they consolidated both Air-King and new 214270 watch hands and it ended up looking beefier on the Explorer dial whereas the old Merc hour hand looked elegant. All it needed was little longer hour hand but Rolex compromised by trying to consolidate with the Air-King model.

While your observations may sound good in theory, let's point out a few things. Lets assume Rolex has 100k Explorer dials left over, which per your theory would already have the 3, 6, 9 on the dial which is why they had to figure out a way to use them. Were the other hour marker indices not placed on the dial at the same time as the 3, 6, 9 indices? Were the dials not branded with the Explorer "logo" during the production run? Did Rolex remove the the indices, fill the holes and re-brand the dials with AirKing in an effort to save a couple bucks (lets all be really honest with ourselves, a SS Rolex has maybe a few hundred dollars of raw material in it "my theory" and such an effort would likely be more expensive than trashing the old dials). Better yet wouldn't Rolex just replace the old indices on the leftover Explorer dials with the new indices, this seems like a much better way to get rid of old Explorer dials (i.e. use them in the new Explorer). You may be right about the hands, however my understanding is the hands are white gold, could just as easily melt them down and use them for other purposes. Does Rolex use interchangeable parts, sure. Is their motive for doing so as profit-centric as you make it out to be, I kind of doubt it.

[Maxy]

Originally Posted by 5253Reynolds

While your observations may sound good in theory, let's point out a few things. Lets assume Rolex has 100k Explorer dials left over, which per your theory would already have the 3, 6, 9 on the dial which is why they had to figure out a way to use them. Were the other hour marker indices not placed on the dial at the same time as the 3, 6, 9 indices? Were the dials not branded with the Explorer "logo" during the production run? Did Rolex remove the the indices, fill the holes and re-brand the dials with AirKing in an effort to save a couple bucks (lets all be really honest with ourselves, a SS Rolex has maybe a few hundred dollars of raw material in it "my theory" and such an effort would likely be more expensive than trashing the old dials). Better yet wouldn't Rolex just replace the old indices on the leftover Explorer dials with the new indices, this seems like a much better way to get rid of old Explorer dials (i.e. use them in the new Explorer). You may be right about the hands, however my understanding is the hands are white gold, could just as easily melt them down and use them for other purposes. Does Rolex use interchangeable parts, sure. Is their motive for doing so as profit-centric as you make it out to be, I kind of doubt it.

You are way off!

I never said dials..just hands and non-lumed 369 numerals. These numerals in stock are then placed on the Explorer dials and not directly printed on the dials. I said that stock of numerals will now be used on the Air-King 40mm dials. All the indices and numerals are placed on the dial after the dial is printed; it doesn't come as single piece.

[5253Reynolds]

Originally Posted by Maxy

You are way off!

I never said dials..just hands and non-lumed 369 numerals. These numerals in stock are then placed on the Explorer dials and not directly printed on the dials. I said that stock of numerals will now be used on the Air-King 40mm dials. All the indices and numerals are placed on the dial after the dial is printed; it doesn't come as single piece.

The numerals are white gold they could just melt them down. You're saying they produced more numerals than they had dials for? Kind of defeats the purpose of batch production. Also, you think the Rolex design team sits around and says "ok guys we have 100k 3, 6, 9 non-lumed numerals lets create a watch to get rid of them." Sorry bud I think you're way off.

[Maxy]

Originally Posted by 5253Reynolds

The numerals are white gold they could just melt them down. You're saying they produced more numerals than they had dials for? Kind of defeats the purpose of batch production. Also, you think the Rolex design team sits around and says "ok guys we have 100k 3, 6, 9 non-lumed numerals lets create a watch to get rid of them." Sorry bud I think you're way off.

Obviously they have more dials which they can still use for current 214270 models, that's not changing or going waste. Well you don't seem to get business process when manufacturing of parts happens only 6 months per for next few or 5 years production.

It's not create watch but more like try to use in any of the other models in production.

[Meme-Dweller]

Is there a vintage Air King with markers that increment in 5s? Like is this a homeage to something Rolex made in the past? I'm not well-versed in Rolex history but if it's not, then they released a hella messy dial.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by ref1655

your 'theory' or observation (with examples) makes total sense & it's a primary reason why some collectors are so anal-retentive about first editions/releases.

in retrospect, the 1655 went through several changes along the way from its initial release with different bezels, dials & second hands on subsequent models of the identical genre/design. it's kind of reminiscent of Detroit using leftover/available parts in the production of their automobiles & introducing new alternatives when the need presented itself.

while an MBA might consider it a good business practice from the standpoint of inventory control, to esoteric mindsets it borders on inconsistency of design integrity...especially when/if the alterations & changes offer no substantial performance or aesthetic improvement in the product itself.

It all makes sense actually.

Detroit wasn't the only place in the world to do it.
It happened in Australia as well with the muscle cars over transitional build periods.
Also the UK. I personally knew of a one owner very late MK I GT Cortina that had the brakes which were specified for a MK II.
It wasn't discovered until decades later when he went to buy new genuine brake linings. The Ford dealer supplied what was listed in the parts Fiche(before VIN numbers and computers).
They didn't fit and he had to take the originals in to get the correct match.

Rolex are must more organized so I should imagine that all decisions are more planned and strategic. Especially in this more modern era.
I suppose it also depends upon the weight of sway the styling department has as well

[m1911a1]

If you knew the Swiss people and worked there.....you'd know they don't waste anything.
Just part of who they are.....

[5253Reynolds]

Originally Posted by Maxy

Obviously they have more dials which they can still use for current 214270 models, that's not changing or going waste. Well you don't seem to get business process when manufacturing of parts happens only 6 months per for next few or 5 years production.

It's not create watch but more like try to use in any of the other models in production.

Oh you mean like the 36 mm OP already in production. You're right I don't understand your business mentality because it does not make sense.

[Lordofrolex]

Interesting theory, It does have some flaws. Did you just come up with this or did you read this somewhere?

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by 5253Reynolds

The numerals are white gold they could just melt them down. You're saying they produced more numerals than they had dials for? Kind of defeats the purpose of batch production. Also, you think the Rolex design team sits around and says "ok guys we have 100k 3, 6, 9 non-lumed numerals lets create a watch to get rid of them." Sorry bud I think you're way off.

You're assuming that they would produce a ridiculous amount of components based on some garbage stab in the dark figure.

Also it may depend upon the value added component of the numerals.
For example.
Are they stored in bulk in a rough cast state with very little value added inputs?
Other than material cost and some very limited manufacturing and handling inputs, they are essentially not worth much more than the material cost.
Or are they completely finished in their polished state and stored with a greater degree of care?
In this case they would be worth much, much more to Rolex as they sit on the shelves with the standing costs mounting by the day while they sit there on the shelf taking up valuable real estate and not helping to turn a single dollar.
That's exactly the way to throw money out the window quicker than stuffing it in the box.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by m1911a1

If you knew the Swiss people and worked there.....you'd know they don't waste anything.
Just part of who they are.....

True enough.
And Rolex just about does efficiency better than anyone anywhere.
Rolex didn't get to their current position on such a global scale by embracing a wasteful mentality in any form.

[Andybaird22]

In a production / manufacturing environment batch production on such a scale is the most inefficient thing to do!!

Stock holding and inventory = judge costs!

Stock holding and bath production is the very definition of waste


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[77T]

Today's supply chain management doesn't lend itself to speculating about over-producing any component whether it's hands, dials or cases. The one thing Swiss makers learned from Competitors was JIT inventory management and good forecasting.
Rolex has a decent design process that is linked with business unit leadership in a vertically integrated system. That starts with sourcing raw materials, processing, engineering, machining, fabrication and assembly. They even have their own gemologists bidding and sourcing diamonds in varying sizes and shapes.

[5253Reynolds]

Originally Posted by Dirt

You're assuming that they would produce a ridiculous amount of components based on some garbage stab in the dark figure.

Also it may depend upon the value added component of the numerals.
For example.
Are they stored in bulk in a rough cast state with very little value added inputs?
Other than material cost and some very limited manufacturing and handling inputs, they are essentially not worth much more than the material cost.
Or are they completely finished in their polished state and stored with a greater degree of care?
In this case they would be worth much, much more to Rolex as they sit on the shelves with the standing costs mounting by the day while they sit there on the shelf taking up valuable real estate and not helping to turn a single dollar.

That's exactly the way to throw money out the window quicker than stuffing it in the box.

How am I assuming that? My point was it wouldn't be very smart to produce 100k more numerals than you have dials for. Furthermore, I imagine a cost of a numeral is quite nominal; and storage really? You could likely store 500,000 of those things in less than a couple hundred sq. ft. (or roughly 1/3 of a meter for those of you on the metric system). Based on the OP's theory, Rolex overproduced numerals. In order to cure this over run, they paid a team of designers to create a whole new watch, possibly created some new tooling, then created marketing for said watch with the sole purpose of getting rid of the aforementioned numerals. All the while Rolex knew this watch was pure garbage and the people on TRF and associated forums (which probably represent less than 1% of Rolex's total customer base) would complain in perpetuity. This is ok with Rolex thought because once those numerals are gone, they will fire up that design team, re-tool and re-market a more acceptable watch. Why would Rolex care about their reputation or the fact they have probably spent more money on lattes for the design team than the numerals cost in the first place. The numerals are now gone and the recently minted MBA consultant feels vindicated in his/her reduction in stock parts.

[Maxy]

Originally Posted by Dirt

True enough.
And Rolex just about does efficiency better than anyone anywhere.
Rolex didn't get to their current position on such a global scale by embracing a wasteful mentality in any form.

Yep, agree. Can't believe ppl saying Rolex will just melt already produced stock to appeal to some WIS. That's how business is not ran. Also, regular Rolex crowd or sales are not impacted in anyway.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by JohnFM

Good thoughts Maxy. As much as I like the longer hands and lumed numbers on the new Explorer, I do think the trimmer hour hand looked more elegant. The new one looks a little stubby. These are small details, no doubt, but your point is well taken.

I have to disagree.
IMO, the new explorer is awesome now that they fixed the proportions of the hands.
However, from a styling viewpoint I personally would've made the hour hand 0.5-0.75 mm longer. The minute hand is perfect now with it being longer and wider.
Perhaps the watch will look better in real life and the disproportionate lengths won't be quite so apparent.
I wonder about the extent of parts commonality for these hands
Do they share part numbers with other models for functional/cosmetic parts?
Or do Rolex allocate new part numbers which are specific to models regardless of commonality of individual componentry between models?

It's outstanding that Rolex has brought back the lumed numerals on the Explorer
It's overall a very nice watch again.

[Maxy]

Originally Posted by Dirt

It's outstanding that Rolex has brought back the lumed numerals on the Explorer

I just hope its still white gold numerals. The time they did the transitioning to WG numeral in 14270 and then 114270 and 214270, they stopped luming the WG numerals. Their explanation was it will let WG be as new for decades without any fading or need for repair and luming them can take away that reliability factor. So, after 2 decades of no lume on WG numerals, I hope they figured a way out to lume WG numerals now!

[JohnFM]

Maxy,

While I'm with you on the aesthetics of the fat Mercedes hand, why would Rolex have made the hand fatter for both the Air King and new Explorer if they didn't prefer it to the trimmer version? Put another way, I don't think the fatter Mercedes hand makes any more sense on the Air King than the Explorer, so it seems like an intentional design decision (not to mention the fact that Rolex may have had some trimmer hands lying around). Your thoughts on the logic for the fatter Mercedes hand? My sense is that the fatter hands are consistent with what Rolex has done with the Sub and SD and give the Explorer a 'sportier' look, for better or worse.

John

[GradyPhilpott]

If you're suggesting that the hands on the 114270 and the first 214270 were the same, you're wrong.

I don't think that Rolex releases "compromised" models.

They release what they think will sell and if they are wrong they make corrections.

Sometimes I think they may just stir the pot so to speak.

Originally Posted by JohnFM

My sense is that the fatter hands are consistent with what Rolex has done with the Sub and SD and give the Explorer a 'sportier' look, for better or worse.

John

This is closer to the truth, I do believe.

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by 5253Reynolds

How am I assuming that? My point was it wouldn't be very smart to produce 100k more numerals than you have dials for. Furthermore, I imagine a cost of a numeral is quite nominal; and storage really? You could likely store 500,000 of those things in less than a couple hundred sq. ft. (or roughly 1/3 of a meter for those of you on the metric system). Based on the OP's theory, Rolex overproduced numerals. In order to cure this over run, they paid a team of designers to create a whole new watch, possibly created some new tooling, then created marketing for said watch with the sole purpose of getting rid of the aforementioned numerals. All the while Rolex knew this watch was pure garbage and the people on TRF and associated forums (which probably represent less than 1% of Rolex's total customer base) would complain in perpetuity. This is ok with Rolex thought because once those numerals are gone, they will fire up that design team, re-tool and re-market a more acceptable watch. Why would Rolex care about their reputation or the fact they have probably spent more money on lattes for the design team than the numerals cost in the first place. The numerals are now gone and the recently minted MBA consultant feels vindicated in his/her reduction in stock parts.

I hear what you're saying.
In some ways we are in agreeance, we are just saying it different ways.

At the end of the day.
IMO, since Rolex has started this business of more radical model transformation they have lost their way in terms of styling, trying to reinvent their style.
The downhill slide commenced with the introduction of the maxi-case
They went way too far unless they were planning on bringing back the twisted lug design of the Bombe. In that case(no pun intended) they certainly had enough material to play with on the top to put maxi-chamfers on it
I couldn't imagine the maxi-case looking any good in 3D on the computer, let alone the physical mock ups.
Now they are moving to make corrections with better proportioned cases and getting the styling department to earn their keep again with fixing the Explorer.

At the end of the day they know they've made some mistakes. They're not required to offer any public apologies though
One was very serious from a commercial point of view IMO. Others quite minor, but enough for the picky among us to notice whilst pawing over pics on the internet at lightning speed within a few hours of release.
Up until that point in time nobody could accuse Rolex of having grossly styled watches. IMO, they may have been a little dated and needed refreshing in some way, but they could never be accused of being gross.

I should imagine Rolex monitors the chatter on these forums as a relevant and accurate point of feedback. It's going to be more direct and accurate than any dealer feedback they may get. Regardless of how much weight they may lend to it at the end of the day.
It's the way of this modern super-fast paced world.
In light of this, Rolex like all globalised entities has a lot at stake in terms of brand identity/recognition and public/buyer perceptions. They also have to make a profit. We need them to make a profit
It would be foolish not to pay heed to the existing/loyal consumer as well as balancing that with the prospects of capturing more market share any way they can

[Maxy]

Originally Posted by Maxy

Most of them relate Rolex for being Perfect or near perfect watches and not compromising on anything. But eventually they end up compromising watches by design, by production, by release timings etc. Watch hands are one of the bigger items and Rolex tried to consolidate all the watch models to the same/similar watch hands to produce them together at once(even moving Exp2 to merc hands).


For example: During 214270's release everyone mentioned the usage of short hands on the Explorer. Why does Rolex do it?

As its known knowledge that Rolex produces everything in batches and not year round production. For example for next 6 months they manufacture watch hands for usage for next 3-5 years plan(as they seem it appropriate). So, when they are upgrading all the Subs, GMTs, Explorer 2 from the previous generation watches and they will have stock of watch hands left over from the previous manufacture set. Lets say they have stock of 100K of hour hands which they can't use it any of the new Submariner models. So even knowing that its little short on the dial on 214270, they will use it as to not to waste it such a big stock of hour hands.


Once that stock is over, they don't mind upgrading the hour hands as they did it in 2016.

Air-King 40mm: Same thing, they might have stock 3,6,9 non-lumed numerals of 214270 remaining which they again can't let it go waste. What do they do? They end up using it in the upcoming Air-King 40mm model even it messes up the design horribly and has no place for it on the dial. They still will use it till the stock is completed and once all the complaints are raised all over, they will make another Air-King model without that 3-6-9 and just replace them with 15,.30,..45 on the dial.



New 214270: Again, they consolidated both Air-King and new 214270 watch hands and it ended up looking beefier on the Explorer dial whereas the old Merc hour hand looked elegant. All it needed was little longer hour hand but Rolex compromised by trying to consolidate with the Air-King model.

Got to know more information which strengthens my point further. The reason Air-King is 40mm is that its using the same cases as Milguass which were of 40mm in size which was incidentally stopped production of the black model last year. Just use the same case and print a new dial and use hands from new 214270 and 369 from older 214270 and create rest of the indices and dial and we have a new model - AirKing 40mm.

[Maxy]

Originally Posted by JohnFM

Maxy,

Your thoughts on the logic for the fatter Mercedes hand? My sense is that the fatter hands are consistent with what Rolex has done with the Sub and SD and give the Explorer a 'sportier' look, for better or worse.
John

That is possible but my logic is simple. They wanted the same hands to fit both Explorer and Air-King which is actually 40mm. So, they make one hand set for both these models and one of them looks compromised. Rolex rarely does something uniquely for that model alone, always tries to consolidate models for production.

[Maxy]

Originally Posted by GradyPhilpott

If you're suggesting that the hands on the 114270 and the first 214270 were the same, you're wrong.

I don't think that Rolex releases "compromised" models.

They release what they think will sell and if they are wrong they make corrections.

Sometimes I think they may just stir the pot so to speak.



This is closer to the truth, I do believe.

No, 214270 hands are from the set of 14060 and 16570 and GMTs. At one time, Rolex was producing standard hands for all of their models and touching the minute markers was hit or miss based on the dial.