GMT losing time on a winder

[PRH]

I know there are split opinions of whether or not to use a winder, so I do not want to get into that discussion.

I got a new Rapport Winder last week. One that has an alternating rocking motion. It probably turns the watch through a little less than 45 degrees each rock rather than full rotations. So each full movement is a little under 90 degrees.

I have noticed that both my GMTII and Sub, start to lose a few seconds a day when on the winder but on my wrist they are within +1 second a day.

Has anyone found this scenario?

I do wonder if the winder is not winding the watch sufficiently.

It rocks for 1 minute every 15 minutes.

Any comments would be much appreciated.

[Tools]

It takes about 600 turns of the watch to keep your watch static. Your "rocker" instructions should tell you how many turns equivalent each setting gives.

The winder isn't going to affect your watches timing, it is only going to wind it and keep it at that state of wind until you put it on again.

Wearing it on your wrist will affect it's timing because the external loads the watch experiences are generally erratic and more forceful than a watch that is just sitting. Therefore, a worn watch will almost always run faster than one that is on a winder.

[PRH]

Thanks but should have said my Daytona is on a Rolex winder that winds in each direction and that maintains its accuracy as does my Tudor on a Wolf Winder

[Rocket_Man]

I use an Orbita that also has a rocking motion. It holds the watch at a slight angle. The 1st of each month I set the watch to the exact time, give it a full wind, and then I don't wind it the rest of the month unless for some reason I let it wind down (Like I forgot to turn on the winder). It is off anywhere from 5 to 40 seconds over a month. It might have something to do with the angle at which is winds your watch. If you set your watch down at night you can influence the amount of time it gains or looses by which way you orient the watch at rest. My guess is the orientation on the winder has a similar effect.

[BlackBay1]

I know the winder you mean and believe it is designed to more accurately simulate the movement of wearing it on the wrist. I have a Rapport Pod winder and tend to leave my watches on it in varying rotation, I have no issues with watches losing/gaining time. Maybe worth a quick word with the dealer you bought it from or Rapport themselves, I believe they are meant to have customer support second to none. Good luck.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by PRH

I know there are split opinions of whether or not to use a winder, so I do not want to get into that discussion.

I got a new Rapport Winder last week. One that has an alternating rocking motion. It probably turns the watch through a little less than 45 degrees each rock rather than full rotations. So each full movement is a little under 90 degrees.

I have noticed that both my GMTII and Sub, start to lose a few seconds a day when on the winder but on my wrist they are within +1 second a day.

Has anyone found this scenario?

I do wonder if the winder is not winding the watch sufficiently.

It rocks for 1 minute every 15 minutes.

Any comments would be much appreciated.

One of the main reasons on a machine the timing could be different from when on the wrist is mainly down to gravity.On the machine it's mostly a repetitive back and throw motion on the same plain and axis.The movements are tested at the COSC in 5 different positions to mimic what goes on the finest winder in the world called wrists.And it's doubtful on a machine winder that it will fully wind the mainspring to peak power-reserve, yes it will keep them ticking but that's about all.So before putting on the machine its best to fully manual wind the movement first,as a machine will only just top up to whatever the power-reserve had in the mainspring to start with unless machine is running 24/7.I had a rapport winder bought for me as a Christmas present around 5 years ago I looked at it was nicely laquered and looks well made and put it back in its box still un-used and put in the attic..

[peterskinner]

Won't timing vary slightly, depending on how the watch is worn? Put it another way, a watch worn by two people may record different variations because of different habits.
I am going to try that, just out of curiosity. A mechanical watch must respond to gravity, as must we.

[tyler1980]

Originally Posted by PRH

I know there are split opinions of whether or not to use a winder, so I do not want to get into that discussion.

I got a new Rapport Winder last week. One that has an alternating rocking motion. It probably turns the watch through a little less than 45 degrees each rock rather than full rotations. So each full movement is a little under 90 degrees.

I have noticed that both my GMTII and Sub, start to lose a few seconds a day when on the winder but on my wrist they are within +1 second a day.

Has anyone found this scenario?

I do wonder if the winder is not winding the watch sufficiently.

It rocks for 1 minute every 15 minutes.

Any comments would be much appreciated.

I have several of the same rapport winders. And yes, over time they will make some of my watches run a bit fast and some a bit slow. As previous posters have said it is most likely due to the fact that the watch is in one position all the time between winding cycles and gravity has an effect on the time keeping. Its a very slight effect as a second or two per day is not that significant, but gravity does affect it. If gravity didn't affect the time keeping when a watch is kept in the same position, the tourbillon would have never needed to be invented. The rotating cage keeps the escapement and balance wheel from being in the same position all the time, which has the effect of negating gravitational pull in one direction or another. Because your watch does not have a tourbillon and the winder keeps the watch at the same position between winding cycles you are actually seeing the effects gravity has on timekeeping. Its not a faulty winder.

Your wrist negates gravity in a similar way as a tourbillon as it puts the watch in many different positions over the course of the day (some wrist positions make it run a bit fast and some a bit slow but at the end of the day it averages out to be pretty accurate) so a properly regulated watch should always be more accurate on your wrist than on a winder. Thats not to say winders are bad as I like them quite a bit, but i don't think you can expect them to keep your watch in perfect time.


I also disagree that the watch needs to be fully wound first and that the winder doesn't wind up your watch as evident by my watches with power reserve indicators. I can put my IWC big pilot 7 day on the winder when it is nearly empty and after a few days at the lowest setting, the power reserve is back up to full. I might suggest though that the setting you have selected which winds it for 1 minute every 15 minutes is too much, as 1 minute winding every hour (the lowest setting) is sufficient for all my watches. Although the settings you choose for your watch probably doesn't have any effect any of the issues you are having, but its not necessary to wind it that much.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by tyler1980

I have several of the same rapport winders. And yes, over time they will make some of my watches run a bit fast and some a bit slow. As previous posters have said it is most likely due to the fact that the watch is in one position all the time between winding cycles and gravity has an effect on the time keeping. Its a very slight effect as a second or two per day is not that significant, but gravity does affect it. If gravity didn't affect the time keeping when a watch is kept in the same position, the tourbillon would have never needed to be invented. The rotating cage keeps the escapement and balance wheel from being in the same position all the time, which has the effect of negating gravitational pull in one direction or another. Because your watch does not have a tourbillon and the winder keeps the watch at the same position between winding cycles you are actually seeing the effects gravity has on timekeeping. Its not a faulty winder.

Your wrist negates gravity in a similar way as a tourbillon as it puts the watch in many different positions over the course of the day (some wrist positions make it run a bit fast and some a bit slow but at the end of the day it averages out to be pretty accurate) so a properly regulated watch should always be more accurate on your wrist than on a winder. Thats not to say winders are bad as I like them quite a bit, but i don't think you can expect them to keep your watch in perfect time.


I also disagree that the watch needs to be fully wound first and that the winder doesn't wind up your watch as evident by my watches with power reserve indicators. I can put my IWC big pilot 7 day on the winder when it is nearly empty and after a few days at the lowest setting, the power reserve is back up to full. I might suggest though that the setting you have selected which winds it for 1 minute every 15 minutes is too much, as 1 minute winding every hour (the lowest setting) is sufficient for all my watches. Although the settings you choose for your watch probably doesn't have any effect any of the issues you are having, but its not necessary to wind it that much.

There is a lot of miss-information about Tourbillion watches, the Tourbillon IMHO serves no real purpose in a wrist watch at all,only the fact the watchmakers can make them at crazy retail prices .And today you would be quite surprised how many watch HI end brands Tourbillons and cages are made China,and they make them very very well too to equal the Swiss.I sometimes wonder why there so much admiration for the Tourbillon,perhaps the unquestioned and deserved prestige of Breguet the inventor many many years ago.But the Tourbillon always work best in one position and in theory the Tourbillon is always modifying the slight timing errors in the vertical position.The Tourbillon does not correct position variations, it only prevents them being detected in the usual testing conditions. But when placed on say a Vibrograph timing machine, the Tourbillon reveals its weaknesses immediately.The Tourbillon does not correct anything,in wrist movements, it only prevents the detection of any beat errors that still exists in natural gravity with wrist movement.

The Tourbillon is in fact an additional mechanism that consumes energy without producing anything except misinformation.The energy it consumes is taken from the reserve destined to the balance regulator. As a result, the balance wheel with less energy will have reduced advantages.Now I agree totally the skill needed to make the cage plus Tourbillon etc is a great horological skill.But in reality any Tourbillon watch is no more accurate that several other non Tourbillon watches that cost quite a bit less.When you think of today's modern watches,with or without Tourbillons are not so nearly accurate as one produced by John Harrison almost 300 years ago.

Gravity is one of the main causes of rate variations in watches,by creating the Tourbillon,when Breguet thought he was eliminating its effects,It looks like it was an big error on his part,he only masked them like Tourbillons do.Now if someone could come up and counteract the effect on gravity on a wrist watch totally.Now that would be a big break through but until then Tourbillons,IMHO are just good to look at,and they are very very expensive to own,and they make them because they can.But again looking at the other side of the coin,in Breguets day a hundred plus years ago when he invented the Tourbillon and the tools he had then.And now today with modern machines and computers puts a different perspective on the making side of Tourbillons today.

[beshannon]

Originally Posted by PRH

I do wonder if the winder is not winding the watch sufficiently.