Rolex Sub C vs Grand Seiko Spring Drive Divers watch

[457689]

Originally Posted by 1000ft

Sorry 'dudes'. I'll keep to myself. Enjoy your g-shocks.

Case and Point

[chrono1g]

If you find both watches to be equally pleasing (aesthetically), i highly recommend you look into the seiko! You really have to see and feel the GSSD in person to truly appreciate it for what it is. Before seeing one in person, i was rather skeptic. But when i visited Tokyo a few months ago and saw one for myself, the rest was history. I purchased it on the spot. The build quality was unquestionably superior to my old subc. The GSSD is quite the value, really. On the other hand, if brand recognition is a top concern for you, go with the rolex.

You can't go wrong with either option!

[austinnh]

This post contains first some opinions about brand names, then some technical thoughts about GS movements, then some opinions about GS aesthetics.

Brand names:

Many people gladly and openly choose a Rolex over Seiko just because of the brand name. To each his own, but I think it's silly to pay so much money for just a name.

I am personally of the opinion that brands like Acura and Lexus and Infinity etc are just meaningless wrappers to confuse the ignorant. Someone who knows any thing about cars knows that an Acura is a Honda, Lexus a Toyota, and Infinity a Nissan etc. I really hope Seiko does not create such a ghost brand. If it's make by Seiko, it should say Seiko on the dial.

Movements:

Now that I'm past all that brand name stuff, from everything I've heard and read the Seiko is of excellent quality. I love the principle of the Spring Drive movement. But it has not yet taken the test of time. Exploded diagrams of Grand Seiko mechanical watches appear to show MANY more moving parts that the Swiss counterparts, which concerns me from the standpoint of long term servicing and maintenance. The Spring Drive movements in particular appear to have the Seiko "magic lever" winding system, which I'm not too fond of. Seiko has all but admitted that the "magic lever" is inferior by giving the 9S65 movement a conventional reverser mechanism and thereby improving the efficiency (according to Seiya's website [1]).

[1] http://www.seiyajapan.com/product/S-...o-SBGR051.html

Aesthetics:

But my BIGGEST problem with the GS diver is just that it's so darn ugly. In fact this is my problem with most of the Grand Seiko watches. I've only seen them in pictures so maybe I'd like them in person. But to my eye, they just don't look good. No matter how technically superior a watch may be, I must like the way it looks in order to consider buying it.

Just my thoughts,
-Austin

EDIT: Oh yeah and most of the GS lineup is too big in my opinion (for my wrists).

[Tachymeter]

I had the chance to view them both during my last trip to Japan. The Seiko is truly magnificent, I only wish it wasn't so large, at 42mm it would be perfect!

Both watches are great to wear and have their own perks. It would be tough to decide a clear winner.

[multimedia]

Originally Posted by Roxas

I think it's about 30 years. IMO, GS Spring Drive is superior than Rolex in every way except brand recognition and resale value.

I agree 100%

Originally Posted by slevin kelevra

So between the New Sub and no offence, a Seiko there are some guys on here who would have the Seiko??

Personally, I would choose the Grand Seiko over the New Sub, any day of the week.


Cheers,
Joe

[AA717driver]

Does one HAVE to be "better" than the other? The GS is a great watch, I'm sure.

It has a cachet--in Asia and among watch geeks (not a negative term).

Rolex is what it is for a reason. It's recognized WORLDWIDE (and is AVAILABLE worldwide) for its consistency and quality.

If the folks who build the GS want to avoid these discussions among watch geeks, they'd best get cracking on that world wide distribution network.

I'd love to have a GS. It's a great piece but until I can go down to my AD (instead of flying to NRT), I don't think it can truly be considered the "equal" of Rolex. JMO.

TC

[dwr]

I like both, have had good experiences with mulitple Seikos. They are like Honda, very dependable maintance free.

[marshallr47]

After doing some research, I find the GS very interesting. Seiko has a great history. They make all their parts in-house. Even high end Swiss watches hire out for movements..not that theres anything wrong with it. However, I have respect for a watch company that can produce their own movements. If I were given a choice between Rolex or Seiko, I'd chose Rolex. Not because Seiko is inferior, but because I love the Rolex tradition. Great discussion.

[457689]

I have a Grand Seiko SBGR023. It is simply the most beautiful work of art you'll ever find:

[Baco Noir]

I have a regular Seiko Orange Monster and I love the styling on that watch. The Grand Seiko Diver, while far superior on the inside to the Monster, does not cut it for me on the stlying at all - hands and bracelet are n: for me. I'd take the Sub C anyday.

[457689]

I agree. The Grand Seiko Spring Drive watch is ugly, like someone hit it with the ugly stick for 3 weeks straight.

HOWEVER,

how bout this Seiko diver. Not a spring drive, uses the 8L35 movement (a notch down from the 9S55's found in the Grand Seikos), it's the SBDX001 Marinemaster:

[le_baroudeur]

the sbdx001 marinemaster is BIG compared to the submariner... And it seems to be less accurate.

[457689]

Originally Posted by le_baroudeur

the sbdx001 marinemaster is BIG compared to the submariner... And it seems to be less accurate.

you know, I should do a side by side of the two and do an accuracy test on the two.

my camera is broken and I'm working to pay off the sub, so, soon I will

[multimedia]

Originally Posted by le_baroudeur

the sbdx001 marinemaster is BIG compared to the submariner... And it seems to be less accurate.

Let internet be you friend.

Comparative Review: Seiko SBDX001 Marinemaster vs Rolex 16610LV

Cheers,
Joe

[Andad]

Thanks for the link Joe - an excellent review.

[multimedia]

No worries, Eddie. Yeah, that review is great!

Cheers,
Joe

[BH13GMT]

Originally Posted by AA717driver

Does one HAVE to be "better" than the other? The GS is a great watch, I'm sure.

It has a cachet--in Asia and among watch geeks (not a negative term).

Rolex is what it is for a reason. It's recognized WORLDWIDE (and is AVAILABLE worldwide) for its consistency and quality.

If the folks who build the GS want to avoid these discussions among watch geeks, they'd best get cracking on that world wide distribution network.

I'd love to have a GS. It's a great piece but until I can go down to my AD (instead of flying to NRT), I don't think it can truly be considered the "equal" of Rolex. JMO.

TC

This Echo's my view, spot on. I would have a GS as well as a Rolex Diver prob SDDS. if it was an "either or" scenario I would go Rolex for the reasons posted above.
If I saw a guy with any Grand Seiko on his wrist I would consider him a well informed wearer of fine watches.

[SeamasterGMT]

Originally Posted by padi56

Well the Seiko grand most certainly can be regulated its a mechanical only movement its the Spring Drive thats part quartz, and the mechanical ones are tested to a far higher chronometer spec than the Swiss COSC.Average accuracy -2+4 seconds a day plus they guarantee service for 50 years and every one is hand assembled.Well first lets not forget why the COSC was first formed and Rolex is the largest brand to have watches tested there, so large Rolex have there own special machine there.The COSC test is now quite antiquated only bare movement is tested, and today IMHO a pure marketing ploy.As most movements today with a bit of patience and regulation could pass this test.Now the European Din standard and the Japanese equivalent for mechanical movements is to a higher standard than the Swiss COSC and both institutions test movement in the case thats going to be with the watch.

And before the Swiss COSC was formed as we all know it today there was the Observatory testing competitions to a much higher standard than todays watered down COSC test
Now during the entire 23 years of testing, 5093 wristwatches were submitted for certification, and only 3253 were passed, about 64%.Today the first time pass rate at the COSC is around 85-90%In those early days just a few manufacturers participated, and only Omega and Patek did so every year. The others were: Rolex, Zenith, Longines, Movado, Vacheron & Constantin, Ulysse Nardin, Cyma and Favre-Leuba, along with numerous independent professional watchmakers.Now that was until Seiko come on the scene and started to wipe the floor with the Swiss mechanical watch industry.Only 2 brand in the + 23 years of the competitions submitted movements of serial production for retail sale(Seiko and GP).All other brands were specially made movements just for the competition.and it was ended by the swiss in the early 1970s after two straight wins by the Japanese straight off the production line Seiko Grand.

Seiko first entered the competition,with watches from all over the world,including most of the Swiss high end brands.But for a much higher standard than the now Swiss COSC,the Astronomical Observatory Authorisation Chronometer Standard.Out of many watches summited only two passed this very strict test a Seiko Grand just off the production line model, and Giraud Peregaux a specially build for the test model.And in the late 1960s there were only two companies, who could sell watches, passed Astronomical Observatory Authorisation Chronometer in those days. ---Seiko and Giraud Peregaux.As the Japanese had dominated in the late 1960s and the two preceding events, in 1972 some Swiss watch manufacturers demanded the end of the observatory competitions,and it was ended in 1973,thats when the COSC was founded

Now that's the sort of post that makes this a fantastic forum.

[kmleffler]

Thanks for all the responses to the post. As far as I am concerned the only thing that bothers me is that the Seiko warranty for the Grand Seiko is not valid outside of the Far East. However, I have read that Seiko intends to start selling the Grand Seiko in the United States sometime this year.

[457689]

Originally Posted by multimedia

Let internet be you friend.

Comparative Review: Seiko SBDX001 Marinemaster vs Rolex 16610LV

Cheers,
Joe

that's what i tell my wife when she catches me late at night on the internet...

[lordcon]

Originally Posted by le_baroudeur

the sbdx001 marinemaster is BIG compared to the submariner... And it seems to be less accurate.

I had a MM300 for about a year and it was much more accurate than any Rolex ive owned.

-j

[Roxas]

Originally Posted by slevin kelevra

So between the New Sub and no offence, a Seiko there are some guys on here who would have the Seiko?? I realise that Seiko has gret history but so does Rolex.

You could give me 10 seikos or the Sub and I'd still choose the Sub.

Each to their own I guess......

Do you know about Grand Seiko Spring Drive? For me, if somebody will give me 10 GS Spring Drive or a Sub, it is no brainer to choose.

FYI, the MSRP of GS Spring Drive is about the same as Sub C.

[457689]

but, but, but....This is a disaster! There's no pedigree in a seiko. They make 30 dollar watches..

[Roxas]

Originally Posted by funkyegg

sorry, no comparison

So you choose which one? For me, GS Spring Drive is by far better than Sub C and I think they are comparable.

[457689]

Originally Posted by Roxas

So you choose which one? For me, GS Spring Drive is by far better than Sub C and I think they are comparable.

i love GS, but that Spring Drive GS is ugly.

nah, Seiko dive watch-wise, i'll stick with the MM and my vintage 6309:

[mjrennie]

Originally Posted by funkyegg

sorry, no comparison

this

[GradyPhilpott]

Originally Posted by 1000ft

This is a disaster! There's no pedigree in a seiko. They make 30 dollar watches.. What if Porsche made a 15k compact car?

Porsche is owned by Volkswagen.

[GradyPhilpott]

The GS seems to owe an awful lot of its styling to both Rolex and Omega.

I can't really speak to the movement, but +/- 15 sec./mo. isn't that spectacular.

I have nothing bad to say about Seiko, but the specs aren't that great for a quartz movement and the styling is derivative to the max.

The beat rate has never really been an issue for me, so that doesn't even count except as a novelty.

[vukotab]

I think that I`m alone in this, but I`d rather go for Spring Drive! That`s one distinguished watch, a treasure for the one that KNOWS what he have!
It has real horological marvel inside, and it`s maybe the future of watchmaking.
On the other hand, Sub will always be THE ultimate sport watch, and will surely keep better resale value.
Both remarkable watches, without a doubt!

[dogtown]

tell you what I'll take the Sub and you take the Grand Seiko, that deal works for me any time LOL