Fleming Series 1

[dchang81]

I dunno if I'd compare this to a logical one....

[GB-man]

If you think those are comparable I’m honestly confused. Different strokes for different folks. No need to parse it further.

[ChetBaker]

I don’t really like the movement architecture. Too closed. It’s also instantly recognizable as a chronode calibre, cheaper variants of which you can find in many different watches available for far less than the Fleming. And from the online pictures i’m not sure the finishing is really up there with the very best. I do like the dial.

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Elite finishing isn’t even in the top 3 things I look for in a watch but I see significantly better finishing work on the RG compared to this. Night and day on the anglage.

I would be fine with the finishing given my standards if the watch was interesting in any way.

This is a ship without a captain. I want there to be a face and name behind the brand that’s a watchmaking prodigy. This is like a kit car. I realize that’s the Swiss way traditionally but we are talking new age independents here not 1980s swiss conglomerates.

Agreed, not remotely comparable IMO.

Not to mention the giant case weld issue.

I'm honestly confused how you think they look similar in finish quality. Look at how much thicker/wider the bevels are on the L1 for example?

[Ichiran]

I thought you can see the similarities in the 2 pictures I posted. The bevels are around the same thickness. The ones on the L1 are not that thick compared to the very best. Please have a look at my earlier thread, of how the L1 compares to the best bevels in horology.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=924283

[ajw45]

Yawn. It's stuff like this that makes it feel like "indies" have jumped the shark.

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I thought you can see the similarities in the 2 pictures I posted. The bevels are around the same thickness. The ones on the L1 are not that thick compared to the very best. Please have a look at my earlier thread, of how the L1 compares to the best bevels in horology.

https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=924283

Akrivias anglage is not executed to the same quality level as Gauthier. Less even and lots of flaws on their watches….

There is more to anglage than “thicc”

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

Akrivias anglage is not executed to the same quality level as Gauthier. Less even and lots of flaws on their watches….

There is more to anglage than “thicc”

Why don't you speak to people working in RG. Ask any of them who they think has the best finished anglage in business. Go on.

They are nowhere comparable.

There are flaws in any hand-finished watch. The ones in your Armin Strom has lots and lots and lots. I don't even know where to start.

[sinkholeninja]

Questionable case finishing aside, my main issue with it is the lack of noteworthy provenance. Although I admire the founder’s passion for horology, he’s not a watchmaker, or a designer. In essence, the watch production and design is 100% outsourced and the outcome is very generic in my opinion. Now, this is his first release so I’ll take that into account before I cast further criticism. I hope they’ll be able to establish a unique visual identity in their next releases.

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Why don't you speak to people working in RG. Ask any of them who they think has the best finished anglage in business. Go on.

They are nowhere comparable.

There are flaws in any hand-finished watch. The ones in your Armin Strom has lots and lots and lots. I don't even know where to start.

Nobody working at a brand is going to badmouth another brand, it doesn’t look professional.

Flaws exist yes, but at 6 figures for a watch, I expect them to be essentially flawless like Greubel.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by WatchEater666

Nobody working at a brand is going to badmouth another brand, it doesn’t look professional.

Flaws exist yes, but at 6 figures for a watch, I expect them to be essentially flawless like Greubel.

Did we ask them to badmouth another brand? No. Ask them who they think hand-finish the best anglage in the industry. Go ahead. I have asked RG the same question.

GF is not flawless. Bring a loupe along. And this is even before they increase production to 500 per year.

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Did we ask them to badmouth another brand? Ask them who they think hand-finish the best anglage in the industry. Go ahead. I have asked RG the same question.

GF is not flawless. Bring a loupe along. And this is even before they increase production to 500 per year.

Nobody is flawless but they get the closest.

[Ichiran]

Not impressed by present day GF. Besides the flaws, they are getting rid of interior angles in their low 6 figures watches and ramping up production massively. Those pricier few that still have carvings have very shallow bevels and are almost straight/45° down with no curvature. And they are huge on the wrist. Ask any watchmaker - it's much easier to make/finish huge watches compared to smaller ones.

Not my cup of tea. I would rather buy a RRCCII plus a AK06 for the same money.

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Not impressed by present day GF. Besides the flaws, they are getting rid of interior angles in their low 6 figures watches and ramping up production massively. Those pricier few that still have carvings have very shallow bevels and are almost straight/45° down with no curvature. And they are huge on the wrist. Ask any watchmaker - it's much easier to make/finish huge watches compared to smaller ones.

Not my cup of tea. I would rather buy a RRCCII plus a AK06 for the same money.

Agreed, the newer ones are not great for the $ but I don't think buying Akrivia is viable at MSRP. They are definitely $500k+ a piece now.

The Signature1 from Greubel for example, very nice for the $ "used". Low 6 figures.

[Ichiran]

I have considered S1 until I come across the Origine. The Origine is a perfect 40mm, has better finishing than the S1 in my view and only cost 1/3 of the S1. It's a no brainer. When Sylvain sent me the deposit receipt I almost wept in joy.

[ajw45]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I have considered S1 until I come across the Origine. The Origine is a perfect 40mm, has better finishing than the S1 in my view and only cost 1/3 of the S1. It's a no brainer. When Sylvain sent me the deposit receipt I almost wept in joy.

LOL The Fleming is a KV at a fraction of the cost and the Origine is a S1 at a fraction of the cost, and so on. Sure it is. At the very top level of watch making I think it's fair to say things are different, styles are different, certain facets executed more to a personal preference, etc. but to say "x" is better than "y" is pretty is pretty obtuse. I think there's also sorts of conversations that could be had about techniques, quality, quantity, design, preferances, difficulty of execution, etc but "better" is reductive. By all means, buy what you like, enjoy the value, weep in joy at your Origine, but lets not pretend X is better then why at a fraction of the cost.

Lets take one example. The Origine "dial" is printed vs the S1 (gold) dial(s) for which each marker was engraved, filled with enamel, and then fired. Is printing to your mind "better" than champleve enamelling?

Or another example, super basic, the Origine jewels are pressed directly into the plates vs the S1 in which all the jewels, even for the barrel polished gold chatons. Is the Origine "better" for going without those willy useless gold chatons?

And how are we comparing a KV Vingt-8 with it's natural escapement to a blinged out chronode?

Hey, I'm happy your happy with your excellent value watches. If you need to crap on other brands/watches to make yourself feel better though that's kinda crap. Whatever, I only responded here because I draw the line at fake news and opinions being stated as facts.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by ajw45

LOL The Fleming is a KV at a fraction of the cost and the Origine is a S1 at a fraction of the cost, and so on. Sure it is. At the very top level of watch making I think it's fair to say things are different, styles are different, certain facets executed more to a personal preference, etc. but to say "x" is better than "y" is pretty is pretty obtuse. I think there's also sorts of conversations that could be had about techniques, quality, quantity, design, preferances, difficulty of execution, etc but "better" is reductive. By all means, buy what you like, enjoy the value, weep in joy at your Origine, but lets not pretend X is better then why at a fraction of the cost.

Lets take one example. The Origine "dial" is printed vs the S1 (gold) dial(s) for which each marker was engraved, filled with enamel, and then fired. Is printing to your mind "better" than champleve enamelling?

Or another example, super basic, the Origine jewels are pressed directly into the plates vs the S1 in which all the jewels, even for the barrel polished gold chatons. Is the Origine "better" for going without those willy useless gold chatons?

And how are we comparing a KV Vingt-8 with it's natural escapement to a blinged out chronode?

Hey, I'm happy your happy with your excellent value watches. If you need to crap on other brands/watches to make yourself feel better though that's kinda crap. Whatever, I only responded here because I draw the line at fake news and opinions being stated as facts.

My statement was "the Origine has better finishing than the S1 in my view" and that's not "crapping" on your watch. It doesn't mean the S1 is poorly finished. It is just my opinion the Origine is better in that regard where anglage and interior angles are concerned following the topic from the previous posts. I love interior angles in a certain style and the Origine has more of that compared to the S1. Similarly if I opine the anglage of the RRCCII is better than the RRCC, it doesn't mean the RRCC is crap.

It's a fact the Origine is 1/3 the cost of the S1, and the Origine is 40mm and is smaller than the S1.

That aside, when I was researching the S1, I recall only the markers are enameled, not the entire dial.

I do have a few watches by new independents and your comment "feel like "indies" have jumped the shark" - now that's crapping on my watches? I didn't want to respond to that initially but since you are so offended by x is better than y so I must.

By the way I talked objectively about my own watches, for example, Patek and AP are mostly machine-finished, Journe finishing is average, RG anglage is not number 1 in the industry, etc. You can check my post history.

[kunlun]

Okay guys, relax a little, they are only watches, it's low stakes.

Since GF has been mentioned, I will say that a GF rep told me that a special GF model will come out designed to "raise the bar" on finishing.

Also, a HandMade2 and a HandMade3 are planned.

So, that was news to me, maybe to some readers, too.

[FrugalGreubel]

Originally Posted by kunlun

Okay guys, relax a little, they are only watches, it's low stakes.

Since GF has been mentioned, I will say that a GF rep told me that a special GF model will come out designed to "raise the bar" on finishing.

Also, a HandMade2 and a HandMade3 are planned.

So, that was news to me, maybe to some readers, too.

I didn’t know at all about there being a HandMade 2 and 3. And I’m very interested in finding out more about this model that’s gonna have crazy finishing. I don’t own a GF and I sadly know I never will (due to lack of funds not interest). I like the brand. It’s frustrating to hear about their decline in overall quality with the increase in production but I still like to see whatever they come out with.

[FrugalGreubel]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

I have considered S1 until I come across the Origine. The Origine is a perfect 40mm, has better finishing than the S1 in my view and only cost 1/3 of the S1. It's a no brainer. When Sylvain sent me the deposit receipt I almost wept in joy.

That’s a killer watch and I’m very happy you’re able to get one. A very promising brand. Still hoping to check one out in person at some point. Congrats again!

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by ajw45

LOL The Fleming is a KV at a fraction of the cost and the Origine is a S1 at a fraction of the cost, and so on. Sure it is. At the very top level of watch making I think it's fair to say things are different, styles are different, certain facets executed more to a personal preference, etc. but to say "x" is better than "y" is pretty is pretty obtuse. I think there's also sorts of conversations that could be had about techniques, quality, quantity, design, preferances, difficulty of execution, etc but "better" is reductive. By all means, buy what you like, enjoy the value, weep in joy at your Origine, but lets not pretend X is better then why at a fraction of the cost.

Lets take one example. The Origine "dial" is printed vs the S1 (gold) dial(s) for which each marker was engraved, filled with enamel, and then fired. Is printing to your mind "better" than champleve enamelling?

Or another example, super basic, the Origine jewels are pressed directly into the plates vs the S1 in which all the jewels, even for the barrel polished gold chatons. Is the Origine "better" for going without those willy useless gold chatons?

And how are we comparing a KV Vingt-8 with it's natural escapement to a blinged out chronode?

Hey, I'm happy your happy with your excellent value watches. If you need to crap on other brands/watches to make yourself feel better though that's kinda crap. Whatever, I only responded here because I draw the line at fake news and opinions being stated as facts.

Exactly. There is more to a watch than anglage.

[ajw45]

PSA:

A Corvette isn't "better" then a Ferrari just because it has more HP.

A Fleming isn't "better" than a Vingt-8 just because the bevels are thicker.

More interior angles aren't "better", it's just more.

Buying an expensive watch doesn't buy knowledge, credibility or authority, just a stupid watch.

Children look at car performance in HP and 0-60 numbers. It is similarly juvenile to judge a watch's finish just on how thick the bevels are or which has more interior angles.

And yes, in the company of KV or some of the other actual watch MAKERS being mentioned here, a Fleming is a kit car. Hey, I'd love a Caterham, but I'm not going to tell someone it's better than a Pagani at a fraction of the price. It would be sad if someone here bought a Fleming thinking it's a better cheaper Vingt 8 instead of buying it with full clarity for what it is (and isn't).

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by FrugalGreubel

That’s a killer watch and I’m very happy you’re able to get one. A very promising brand. Still hoping to check one out in person at some point. Congrats again!

Thank you!
Hope you get the chance to see one in metal.

Originally Posted by ajw45

A Corvette isn't "better" then a Ferrari just because it has more HP.

I'm not going to respond to the name calling in your post, but a car priced like a Ferrari doesn't make that car a Ferrari. The RRCCII is not priced like a Pagani but it is a Pagani though. Enameling and gold chatons are not finishing - these are decorations.

I like the Vingt-8 and I do have a Vingt-8 coming, and I did not say the finishing on the Fleming is better than the Vingt-8. I'm just saying the price is cheaper.

I value hand-finished anglage and that's my personal choice. Calling someone childish and juvenile for their choice of watch is so uncalled for.

[usmc_k9_vet]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

The lovely fish scales outer ring and radial inner ring. They are Kari's signature. The hands appear 3D to me.

I’ve been following this thread and don’t mean to be rude or add to the controversy, I mean this genuinely - if those fish scales are a KV signature, they’re a signature of his for a reason and should be left to him to do on his watches. I guess someone else can do them of course, because there are only so many ideas companies can throw at a watch at this point, but if a feature of my watch was someone else’s signature and it wasn’t on a watch of theirs, I’d feel a bit weird. It’d be like if Omega all the sudden did a date at 3 o’clock with a cyclops magnifier over it and people were like “check out the date feature on my Omega. It’s a Rolex signature feature.” Maybe a bit of an extreme example, but that’d be downright weird and embarrassing.

Just my two cents. Carry on! I can’t afford any of the watches mentioned anyway.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by usmc_k9_vet

I’ve been following this thread and don’t mean to be rude or add to the controversy, I mean this genuinely - if those fish scales are a KV signature, they’re a signature of his for a reason and should be left to him to do on his watches. I guess someone else can do them of course, because there are only so many ideas companies can throw at a watch at this point, but if a feature of my watch was someone else’s signature and it wasn’t on a watch of theirs, I’d feel a bit weird. It’d be like if Omega all the sudden did a date at 3 o’clock with a cyclops magnifier over it and people were like “check out the date feature on my Omega. It’s a Rolex signature feature.” Maybe a bit of an extreme example, but that’d be downright weird and embarrassing.

That's a very good question. If I'm Fleming, I would create more separation to Kari's design from an aesthetics perspective. The one in Roger Smith's Great Britain guilloche is very nice where a design is hidden within another design, and that is something I'm sure Comblémine is able to do. Maybe i will also do away with the petit seconde and try something else. That said, it will always look like another watch in the market unless Fleming does skeletonization or partial skeletonization which Comblémine can do also. From design to prototype, that's another 2 to 3 years and by then, who knows, maybe skeleton dials will be dominant and his watch will look like one of those already in the market again.

[_speedmaster_]

A watch will always have the dna of others when you are contracting others to do the work.
No matter how much finishing is tacked on, the Fleming movement is clearly a Chronode c101. The dial is done by Comblemine..... it's gonna have Kari dna in it. That's ultimately my gripe with this watch, too many components were outsourced and it looks it.