Resurrection ????

[President]

Help me finish this. When was he banned?

[astcell]

I do not see this as much of an "Atomic" issue but rather as a determination of where the line is that he crossed. We know we do not have free speech here like we do in the real world. But how much do we have. 10%? 50%? 99.99? We need to understand the limits of the Moderators in order to survive.

[Earl]

Robert, it's not so much the freedom of speech here but, more so concideration of others. The word Tosser has been used on this forum since day 1 in many many forms. Why is it now that the people who were not offended are now, did they find Jessus? You have me scratching my head on this :But how much do we have. 10%? 50%? 99.99? We need to understand the limits of the Moderators in order to survive."? Robert, you do? How many people here have received these citatations or demerits for their speech? How many people have been banned due to their speech? only 1 person really that was Atomic for the befor mentioned reasons.

Earl

[astcell]

Demerits, bans, violations, all that is new to me. I never give it a thought. Like if I walk down the street and see a police officer, I never in a million years will think he is watching me.

I have no idea how many people have received what. I know I get private emails stating that a post here or there may be out of line, for all I know, everyone gets them.

If we have said TOSSER from Day One and now someone complains, are we to change the entire forums just for them? Maybe THEY need to take a hike and stop trying to change what has always been. What else will we change? What will we devolve to? How about locking the board for new posts on Sundays since that is a day of rest?

You can please some of the people all of the time and all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time, but that is what you are trying to do. Banning atomic pleased some people and not others. It has to stop sometime, and someone is going to be left holding the proverbial bag.

[Lol-x]

Avalon I wish you could say something nice about the forum or any member, because I just keep seeing very negative things directed in all directions by you.

Many moderators or administrators would have taken steps by now if they were not so relaxed, this is a watch forum. Management decisions have to be made, not all people can be pleased all of the time.

Your repeated accusations are that I am so very dishonest, well I don't agree. I'm interested in watches, I thought you were too.

I'm just using Atomic own words when he said for months he "only used the forum to speak to his small group of friends, who he had now stolen away". I thought you believe what Atomic tells you. Now I'm accused for being dishonest for accepting Atomics own words.

I don't feel it is productive injecting anymore negative energy in this matter, I've said what I said and I stand by it. You can come back again and again, the answer is the same, the reasons are the same, and it seems you will be the same.

[Launch Mini]

Steve,
I didn't think I was going to open this Pandora's box here.
Can we lock this one down now & move on?

[walds11]

I don't know the whole story, but please let this issue die. This thread probably should of been locked or deleted a long time ago.

[Ashley]

Originally Posted by walds11

I don't know the whole story, but please let this issue die. This thread probably should of been locked or deleted a long time ago.

Why do people keep wanting to sweep this thread under a rug?
Obviously there is a reason that it hasn't been locked yet. I think it's good that people get to hear what happened.

Just my thoughts

[astcell]

Originally Posted by walds11

I don't know the whole story, but please let this issue die. This thread probably should of been locked or deleted a long time ago.

I think it is still here because what fuels the fire is the appearance of censure. If this thread dies slowly after everyone has said what they wanted, great, it is in one place and folks can skip reading it. I am sure many do. It will devolve to where no one posts to this thread and it will simply stagnate and all will be well again. People need to vent their feelings somewhere. If this thread is closed prematurely then it may appear that the mods are silencing the expression of others and it can be one big "here we go again."

Hi Craig,

I knew at some point you would show up in this thread to repeat your attacks on John and me. I conclude from your post that John and me are basically "bad people." Okay, let's start with that premise.

You talk about the complaints regarding JJ's posts (I will remind you I did not bring him into this discussion), and make the point that we did not contact him and ask politely for him to stop asking what we wear to bed. I will make the point that his refusal to stop posts about his watches having sex, and asking what people wear to bed were what ultimately lead to his banning from the other place. The mods over there claimed to have asked him in private before going public with their concerns about his posts, but he would not stop. Now, do I believe everything they say? Obviously not, but I do wonder if there is some truth to their claims. Some time ago JJ made a post about going for a pee in the middle of the night and playing with his watch when he went back to bed. Many chimed in with the cry of "Too much information!" and there was some normal ribbing that JJ took offense to
- I guess the thread did not get the response he wanted. He then went on a bit of tirade, and Gedanken posted this in response:

"JJ, I'd suggest you take a deep breath and take a look at what's happening here.

That was John asking, and he's not a mod here, is he? If he's uncomfortable with what you've written, he's 100% entitled to voice his reservations as are any of the other members. The fact is that whether you like it or not, you're encroaching other people's personal space by going into too much detail for their comfort. John's been good enough to stand up and be straightforward with you, and I applaud him for that.

As mods, we have to maintain a balance between your right to free speech and everybody else's right to not being faced with the discomfort of reading posts that offend their sensibilities. The fact here, as testified to by John's post, is that your posts has rubbed people the wrong way. I'll point out the obvious here, JJ - we like you, but that does not give you licence to do as you please without regard for others' feelings.

I put it to you that you've now twice trampled on people here - first by the initial post (which is something that we can get over), but now even worse, by telling people that you don't give a rat's ass about offending them. Nobody's here to serve you, JJ - everybody counts and I will not stand for you telling them that they don't.

I'm sorry if you feel that you're being oppressed here, but you need to have a good think about the effect of your posts on other people.

We've spoken about these issues in private before, and personally I would have preferred to keep it that way. However, if you're going to come out in public and accuse the mods of being like those from "the other place", and on top of that throw the gauntlet down by announcing that you "don't give a rat's ass" when you are clearly in the wrong, do not, I repeat, NOT, expect to get away with it. I wouldn't let this slide with anyone else, and I cannot afford to be impartial here."

So, if the mods had already discussed JJ's odd posts with him, and had to confront him openly on the forum because he kept on with them, do you really expect that a regular member saying "please don't post these things" is really going to make him stop?

Now I don't know what John complained about, but I complained about the thread asking people what they wear to bed. I personally find it to be an odd question - I found it odd when he asked people the same thing at the other place. In my view it's just not a normal question to ask people, and coupled with the fact that it was a major issue at the other place I thought JJ might have learned where to draw the line, but I guess not. So, when I saw him posting that same stuff here I thought "Oh no, here we go again!" and I expressed my concern to the mods that we didn't want to go down this path again, hoping that they would nip it in the bud. Now let's talk about twisting facts. Aside from the above, you failed to mention that the thread about what people wear to bed was pulled by the mods. I expect the mods here felt it was inappropriate as well, or they would not have pulled it. So are you twisting facts when you imply we were the only people who thought it was inappropriate? I think the answer is yes.

The underlying problem for you is who we took issue with. We dared to say we were fed up with some of the things JJ posts, and these days that is the ultimate sin at TRF. At one point the mods here chastised John for the number of Panerai related posts he had made, and yet JJ had posted more threads on one watch in a month than John had ever posted on Panerai the whole time he was a member here!

And by the way, the GTG John organized grew to something much bigger than it originally was because there were many TRF members in the Toronto area that he wanted to include. Ed even flew up from DC to join in. John worked quite hard to gather something like $3K worth of goodies to hand out to make sure everyone had something when they left. He has since sent Panerai stickers to people all over the world, yet you call him selfish because he didn't inform you of a change in the plans before making it public?

It's very sad that things have gone so wrong here. This place had so much potential in the beginning, and I looked forward to coming here and hanging out with my friends. I even offered to chip in to help buy this site when it was shut down after you threatened to leave TRF and the subsequent crapstorm happened. Like everyone else, I'm tired of all this......

[C.J.]

This is not an attack, Al. It's simply pointing out facts. Stop being so dramatic and do the same. Leave your speculation, drama and tall tales behind and simply respond to the facts with facts.

Let's forget about goings on in other past forums and direct our focus on TRF. As far as the thread you mention being pulled by the mods, it was done at the request of you and John and your continuous complaining about it. As far as the italicized quote you made, that was in response to JJ's saying he didn't give a rats a$$ if it offended anyone. Yes, that was wrong and that's what James chastised him for not the subject matter of the thread itself. Though, you weren't quite clear about that in your initial post.

You may not be aware of all that John told me, but the bottom line is he admitted that the only reason he made his initial complaints about JJ was because of the upcoming GTG and the invitation he extended to companies to visit here. He was concerned they wouldn't take us and most importantly, him seriously and he wouldn't get as many handouts. If these complaints were made for moral reasons, I could at least respect that. But they weren't, they were made only for self gain and selfishness. There's nothing to respect there and the fact that he's lying about it now and claiming it was done for other reasons is even more despicable. Then, when the mods disagreed with John and didn't do exactly as he wanted when he wanted, he got himself into a knot and pushed and pushed and pushed until he got himself banned.

You claim to not know why John made his complaints. I say you're a liar, there's no way you can make me believe you didn't have dialog with him prior to the complaints being issued, he made reference to that too in some of our PMs. You had no other reason for levying those complaints than to back up John. Come on, Al, take a step back and look at this thing in it's totality. Take a look at all of the threads and subjects therein. Take into consideration all of the topics we joked and prodded about and yes, you were involved in some too. You being an educated and intelligent man, tell me how you honestly selected these few subjects to be anymore disturbing or intrusive than the others which were discussed in the very same time frame.......... You simply can't. Nor, can you admit to being wrong, thus, I'm sure this will continue. But, I'm growing tired of it. So, when you come back with your next response, discuss it completely with John before hand. Remember, He told me many things about the GTG and I'm sure he remembers. I've mentioned nothing of them thus far as far handouts.....descriptions of it in other forums and one vendor in particular where a gift to him from me came from.

As far as the selfishness attributed to the GTG is concerned, my feelings on that are this. He advertised the GTG as a "mostly paneristi" GTG with people coming from as far away as Atlantic City and DC. It appears as though these GTG's are a big deal in the Panerai community and he wanted to be sure his looked good. A hot topic of some other GTG were the amount of give aways there were. He wanted to be sure he looked good by having a lot of give aways, Al. Again, lets be honest here. And, again, I know a little more about these than you may think, so please, let's end this part of the discussion here. Or, at the very least, carefully discuss this topic with John before you post anymore about this and place me in a position where I have to respond.

The bottom line here is that he chose to make personal attacks on JJ and you chose to back him up. His reasons for the attacks were in no way righteous, nor were yours. This has nothing to do with who the attacks were made on. The two of you were concerned that an overwhelming amount of pictures were going to be posted of a watch that the guy loved.....so what. You're a grown man, as is John. If you didn't want to see them you only needed to not open the threads.

As far as his not knowing the banning was coming..BS. He knew damn well it was coming, he was warned by mods and asked by me to lay off. But, John is John and how dare he not be allowed to do exactly what he wanted to do. You were so quick to point out how posts bothered you, why were others not entitled to the very same rights about Johns unending cheap shots at JJ and creating a hostile environment in so many threads?

He has all these members asking about demerit points, where the line not to be crossed is and whether enough notice was given before his banning. Step up, man and tell the truth. Drop the martyr act and be honest. He knew damn well where the line was. Hell, it was highlighted for him and his put his foot over it many, many times. He dared the mods to ban him and they FINALLY did.

As far as you mentioning the shut down. Well, I'm not surprised to see that from you, but I won't lower myself to your level and discuss that openly.

Originally Posted by C.J.

This is not an attack, Al. It's simply pointing out facts. Stop being so dramatic and do the same. Leave your speculation, drama and tall tales behind and simply respond to the facts with facts.

Funny, it sure seems like an attack to me.

Originally Posted by C.J.

Let's forget about goings on in other past forums and direct our focus on TRF. As far as the thread you mention being pulled by the mods, it was done at the request of you and John and your continuous complaining about it. As far as the italicized quote you made, that was in response to JJ's saying he didn't give a rats a$$ if it offended anyone. Yes, that was wrong and that's what James chastised him for not the subject matter of the thread itself. Though, you weren't quite clear about that in your initial post.

You seem to be so concerned with context, but only when it suits you. Leaving out what happened on the other forum is leaving out the context that lead me to complain about the thread. I've explained my reasons for what actions I took.

And regarding the italicized quote, well, read the thread yourself and decide if you think that was all JJ was being spoken to about.

http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=8752

Originally Posted by C.J.

You claim to not know why John made his complaints. I say you're a liar, there's no way you can make me believe you didn't have dialog with him prior to the complaints being issued, he made reference to that too in some of our PMs.

I am not trying to convince you of anything. However, the fact remains I had no dialogue with John before I sent in my complaint.

Originally Posted by C.J.

You had no other reason for levying those complaints than to back up John. Come on, Al, take a step back and look at this thing in it's totality. Take a look at all of the threads and subjects therein. Take into consideration all of the topics we joked and prodded about and yes, you were involved in some too. You being an educated and intelligent man, tell me how you honestly selected these few subjects to be anymore disturbing or intrusive than the others which were discussed in the very same time frame.......... You simply can't. Nor, can you admit to being wrong, thus, I'm sure this will continue.

Well, I've stated my reasons for what I did - I did not want to relive what I had already lived once on another forum. Neither you nor John lived through that. Whether you accept that or not is not under my control. Would I have done things differently, knowing where it all has lead to? Of course I would. Certainly it was not worth all of this. It's too bad that people can't have 20/20 hindsight, and the law of unintended consequences will come back and bite people on occasion.


In response to all your comments on the GTG that I've snipped.....

You may know more than me on what transpired leading up to the GTG. I don't frequent any of the Panerai communities, and never saw any of the others places this GTG was advertised. I'm sure you will now call me a liar again. If you wish to believe that John did everything he did for selfish reasons, then it's obvious that nothing I can say will change that. I am greatful that he organized it, and certainly had a good time with all the others there (regardless if they were TRF members or not).

Originally Posted by C.J.

The bottom line here is that he chose to make personal attacks on JJ and you chose to back him up. His reasons for the attacks were in no way righteous, nor were yours. This has nothing to do with who the attacks were made on. The two of you were concerned that an overwhelming amount of pictures were going to be posted of a watch that the guy loved.....so what. You're a grown man, as is John. If you didn't want to see them you only needed to not open the threads.

I've made my peace with JJ.

The botom line is, I do regret what has happened here. If you don't believe that, again that's fine with me. Is it partly my fault? Sure it is, but I share the responsibility with others (and not just John either).

We all make mistakes, and hope we can learn from them and move on.

[Mink]

Originally Posted by Avalon

...You talk about the complaints regarding JJ's posts (I will remind you I did not bring him into this discussion), and make the point that we did not contact him and ask politely for him to stop asking what we wear to bed. I will make the point that his refusal to stop posts about his watches having sex, and asking what people wear to bed were what ultimately lead to his banning from the other place. The mods over there claimed to have asked him in private before going public with their concerns about his posts, but he would not stop. Now, do I believe everything they say? Obviously not, but I do wonder if there is some truth to their claims. Some time ago JJ made a post about going for a pee in the middle of the night and playing with his watch when he went back to bed. Many chimed in with the cry of "Too much information!" and there was some normal ribbing that JJ took offense to
- I guess the thread did not get the response he wanted. He then went on a bit of tirade, and Gedanken posted this in response:

"[I]JJ, I'd suggest you take a deep breath and take a look at what's happening here...

Al;

(I hope your sitting down) I agree with you completely - it's deja vu all over again - same stuff, different year, different forum. Its a bit surprising that is took the folks here about 25,000 posts to figure out what it took the folks at that other forum about 15,000 to figure out. But the message is the same and the conclusion will probably be the same as well - I feel it just a question of "when" not "if". If you're really luck and catch a break - maybe he'll give you a week or so of peace and stage another boycott... then again, maybe not - the first one didn't work out so well.

(Hope your still sitting) It's way past my bedtime and it has been a looooonnnngggg day - my brain is turning to mush so I'll end my post here (yes I know how short it is). Hang in there and good night.

Ten cuidado,

- Mink -

[Goodwatch]

Could this be a natural moment to close this thread? We all have had a chance to speak our peace. We could argue until hell freezes over but will that constitute to anything positive? This has hurt me more than I’m willing to admit, I can remember the time I stayed up until deep into the night to usher in 2006, a far cry from the atmosphere I’ve encountered lately.

Your friendly bartender.

[mrbieler]

Originally Posted by Goodwatch

Could this be a natural moment to close this thread?

Only if this will end here. Otherwise, it will just appear elsewhere.

[Goodwatch]

Originally Posted by mrbieler

Only if this will end here. Otherwise, it will just appear elsewhere.

It has ended......

[Launch Mini]

Go ahead and close it, You have my support.
Lock it down & throw away the key.

[roadcarver]

Close it, throw away the key, but don't remove this thread to serve as a reminder of our history so that we can all learn from it, and eventually be better people.