Quick hand switch. Beware!

[yxc145]

One question, OP.
Even if you got a genuine Rolex watch, how do you know if the watch wasn't stolen? When a young kid coming up with a story like that trying to sell an expensive watch, makes me suspect where the watch come from or is fake.

[007timer]

Originally Posted by yxc145

One question, OP.
Even if you got a genuine Rolex watch, how do you know if the watch wasn't stolen? When a young kid coming up with a story like that trying to sell an expensive watch, makes me suspect where the watch come from or is fake.

There is never any guarantee that the watch is or is not stolen. The story he gave is his dad bought it from the original owner and now wants it gone. There was a bill of sale that I had him sign to protect against that possible outcome. But I did not check ID which I should have.

[AK797]

Originally Posted by 007timer

There is never any guarantee that the watch is or is not stolen. The story he gave is his dad bought it from the original owner and now wants it gone. There was a bill of sale that I had him sign to protect against that possible outcome. But I did not check ID which I should have.

There is if you take it to RSC and ask for a repair or polish quote. They will first check if it stolen.

[007timer]

Originally Posted by spoilsofwar01

Hello and thank you for the heads up in regards to what has happened to you, Ive read most of what others have said and the following has been going around in my head...........

Has the Watch Maker got any CCTV, did you check the sellers I.D. and ask for some proof of ownership? prior to any purchase I always check with Rolex the serial number, some numbers are well know, and finally receipts, I draw one up as a disclaimer just in case its an insurance scam and would ask for proof of address and would photograph his drivers licence...... I understand that some of this can be falsified however it offers up a little damage limitation in the event of something going wrong and would hopefully put of a scammer.

Originally Posted by AK797

There is if you take it to RSC and ask for a repair or polish quote. They will first check if it stolen.

True, but an AD will not do it. You would have to drive down to Beverly Hills where I took my GMT to get that process started. There would have to be a lot of meeting of the minds for people to drive up to LA and allow them to start checking it without buying it. Slightly more complex than the comment suggested. Your suggestion is possible, but also difficult.

[vincenzowl]

Any resolution to this? The movement pics from OP aren’t exactly the sharpest, so what are the tells that are so obvious to people that this is fake?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[vincenzowl]

Any resolution to this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[007timer]

Originally Posted by vincenzowl

Any resolution to this?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I am still waiting. My case is not considered a "priority" considering they have other cases they are working on.

[vincenzowl]

Disregard, double post.

[mr.president1]

Why take it to a watch maker. Just take it and have it authenticated by a rolex watchmaker at an AD. I would believe a Rolex AD watchmaker with 5 years experience than someone who isn’t with 15 years IMHO

[007timer]

Originally Posted by mr.president1

Why take it to a watch maker. Just take it and have it authenticated by a rolex watchmaker at an AD. I would believe a Rolex AD watchmaker with 5 years experience than someone who isn’t with 15 years IMHO

This watch maker services Rolex for three AD's in the area. Its not some random guy changing watch batteries at a kiosk at the mall. Why not take it there?

Also, I have on multiple occasions walked into Rolex AD and they DO NOT offer any type of authentication services. at least no where in Southern California. No one wants the liability and they will not open the watch for that same reason.

[dmac001]

Continuing to check markings -- pretty obvious when you compare.

[dmac001]

And the rehaut -- interesting, the 'X' and 'E' are noticeably different sizes and font. The Rolex 'E' is square while the other is rounded. The Rolex 'X' is narrower. Also different spacing.

I guess if you stare at these enough, you start to notice the small subtle details.

[run23]

Some people on this thread are a bit full of themselves. Of course in hindsight the deal seems fishy, but the OP did almost everything right (taking to to his guy to get authenticated, asking for a bill of sale), but still got scammed because some people are terrible. Everybody thinks they’ll never the the one the gets scammed because they are too street smart or whatever, but I’ve seen it happen to enough people to not be too sure it couldn’t happen to me. Like it would have almost seemed rude and paranoid if I were in the OP’s place to insist that I see the watch at all times— that’s how these scammers operate. Obviously in the future that’s a precaution I’d take.

I’ve bought expensive camera equipment face-to-face and took what I thought was every precaution, and while I was never scammed, if someone were determined enough I could have been (will take lessons from this post); and in hindsight of course I would have ‘seen’ all the red flags (the guy had a dirty sweatshirt, was too young to have a $4,500 camera or whatever).

[007timer]

Originally Posted by run23

Some people on this thread are a bit full of themselves. Of course in hindsight the deal seems fishy, but the OP did almost everything right (taking to to his guy to get authenticated, asking for a bill of sale), but still got scammed because some people are terrible. Everybody thinks they’ll never the the one the gets scammed because they are too street smart or whatever, but I’ve seen it happen to enough people to not be too sure it couldn’t happen to me. Like it would have almost seemed rude and paranoid if I were in the OP’s place to insist that I see the watch at all times— that’s how these scammers operate. Obviously in the future that’s a precaution I’d take.

I’ve bought expensive camera equipment face-to-face and took what I thought was every precaution, and while I was never scammed, if someone were determined enough I could have been (will take lessons from this post); and in hindsight of course I would have ‘seen’ all the red flags (the guy had a dirty sweatshirt, was too young to have a $4,500 camera or whatever).

[LagunaSeca]

Font on the bezel seems thinner.. first thing I noticed.

[gbpritf]

Wow what a crazy story! Tragic because I can imagine sitting at home, admiring my watch, and my brain telling me its authentic because I'd verified it. And yet it wasn't. That sucks OP!! I also wonder if I might've noticed once I got the watch home. For myself, part of enjoying a new watch is taking out my loupe and admiring the watch under magnification. I think I would've been confused had I noticed imperfections that I could've sworn weren't there before.

Also, I've heard of these more expensive replicas. They're generally a couple grand and supposedly take the copying to the next level. As opposed to the street stuff one might find for a hundred bucks.

Sorry to hear OP! Glad they found the kid!

[007timer]

Originally Posted by gbpritf

Wow what a crazy story! Tragic because I can imagine sitting at home, admiring my watch, and my brain telling me its authentic because I'd verified it. And yet it wasn't. That sucks OP!! I also wonder if I might've noticed once I got the watch home. For myself, part of enjoying a new watch is taking out my loupe and admiring the watch under magnification. I think I would've been confused had I noticed imperfections that I could've sworn weren't there before.

Also, I've heard of these more expensive replicas. They're generally a couple grand and supposedly take the copying to the next level. As opposed to the street stuff one might find for a hundred bucks.

Sorry to hear OP! Glad they found the kid!

Indeed it was tragic. I did not wear it everyday as I would rotate between a few others. Some of these copies are very expensive and they even fooled AD's in the past (according to an investigator in Orange that handled a similar case with the OWNER of a Rolex AD)The worst part is waiting for the Sheriff Department to act.

[BigBoss722]

What a nightmare!

[oldman2005]

Wow, I learned a new thing today: Fake Rolex movement!

By any chance the watchmaker has mistakenly authenticated this watch as real one at the beginning?

[007timer]

Originally Posted by oldman2005

Wow, I learned a new thing today: Fake Rolex movement!

By any chance the watchmaker has mistakenly authenticated this watch as real one at the beginning?

Not likely. When he touched the fake one, he instantly said "this is not the watch you bought"

[watchluvr]

The first most obvious thing with the counterfeit fake movements is that they don't have free sprung balances and they have two levers instead of one. We saved a friend about $30,000 in 4 separate possible transactions... He texts us photos and we always want to see the movement... two on Deep-Seas with this fake movement and two on Subs with this fake movement. Also one with a 2824/2836 ETA mvmt... Always look at the balance wheel to be sure it is a free sprung balance. Once you get that aspect down, you will quickly be able to run away from the transaction. By the way, the friend almost bought the Deep Sea from a guy in Fort Collins. Then about a month later, he went up to Fort Collins to a pawn shop to buy a Deep Sea... same problem. Maybe the pawn shop got taken by the original seller. Unless watchmakers are trained to look at the balance, a cursory glance might cause them to believe the movement is genuine. I guess many pawn shops are getting burned by these new fake movements by not being educated about what to look for. Look at the balance first.

[007timer]

Originally Posted by watchluvr

The first most obvious thing with the counterfeit fake movements is that they don't have free sprung balances and they have two levers instead of one. We saved a friend about $30,000 in 4 separate possible transactions... He texts us photos and we always want to see the movement... two on Deep-Seas with this fake movement and two on Subs with this fake movement. Also one with a 2824/2836 ETA mvmt... Always look at the balance wheel to be sure it is a free sprung balance. Once you get that aspect down, you will quickly be able to run away from the transaction. By the way, the friend almost bought the Deep Sea from a guy in Fort Collins. Then about a month later, he went up to Fort Collins to a pawn shop to buy a Deep Sea... same problem. Maybe the pawn shop got taken by the original seller. Unless watchmakers are trained to look at the balance, a cursory glance might cause them to believe the movement is genuine. I guess many pawn shops are getting burned by these new fake movements by not being educated about what to look for. Look at the balance first.

Good work saving people from potential scams. It is disturbing as to how many of these scams are taking place on the daily! you helped avert 4 disasters, imagine how many are missed. Thanks for the feedback.

[watchluvr]

Originally Posted by 007timer

Good work saving people from potential scams. It is disturbing as to how many of these scams are taking place on the daily! you helped avert 4 disasters, imagine how many are missed. Thanks for the feedback.

[oldman2005]

Can you please share pictures of the real balance and fake one? Thanks!

Originally Posted by watchluvr

The first most obvious thing with the counterfeit fake movements is that they don't have free sprung balances and they have two levers instead of one. .

[watchluvr]

Originally Posted by oldman2005

Can you please share pictures of the real balance and fake one? Thanks!

Here is a picture found online. Look at the balance on the left with one arm coming out. It is genuine. The 2 on the right are I believe the yuki and the angus counterfeit movements. I have not seen a Yuki with the engraving, but the parts are supposedly interchangeable with a real Rolex, so replacing the rotor assembly and the winding bridge would make it look very real... except for the non-freesprung balance.

That is the easiest, fastest way to tell that it is a fake movement. It literally only takes a couple of seconds.

[spoilsofwar01]

Originally Posted by 007timer

This is one of my first posts on this forum. Consider this to be public service announcement.

A little background. I have owned a few Rolex, Omega, Breitling and other watches over the years. I am familiar with the new and second hand markets.

In January of this year, I saw an ad on Craigslist for a Rolex Submariner 116610LN. The ad stated that it was a 2015 watch with no box & papers. After making contact with the seller I agreed on a price of $5,000. However a condition of my purchase is to have the watch inspected by a Rolex watchmaker that has over 15 years of servicing Rolex watches.

The kid showed up with the watch "on belay of his dad". Handed the watch to the watchmaker and he inspected every aspect of the watch. Clasp, links, bracelet, bezel, case, and opened the back and inspected the gears and movement. EVERYTHING checked out 100%. To the extent that my watch maker said "if you don't end up buying it, I will" absolutely good clean watch with no issues whatsoever.

The seller claimed that his Dad really wanted a little more money that what we agreed on and wanted to call him to make sure it's ok. He made the call and said. Ok. He got paid, I got the watch and I wore for 9 months. Fast forward to last week. I had an opportunity to buy a PP Nautilus Moonphase watch. Went to my jeweler to authenticate when he asked me about my Sub. I gaveit to him for a quick cleaning while I was there, that's when he came back saying "this watch is off" it looks right but something is not quiet right. Asked if the watch ever left my possession or if anyone serviced it, the answer was no. He asked if he can open the watch and that's when we discovered that I had been taken. Back in January, when the watch maker handed the watch back on the counter, he switched the watch with a fake one. Not having any reason to re-check my watch it went unnoticed for 9 whole months. Again, I have 4 other Rolex watches at home and I never suspected it. It's a $1,250 fake watch. Even the movement is an exact copy. The watch maker showed it to two other guys who have less experience and at first glance they both said yes it's real until they started to notice things like the quality of the finish on the movement and the top of the screws. Very subtle and easy to miss. All the markings were correct, stamps and numbers are all present. This is very scary that they are getting this good at faking these watches. I took every precaution I can and the fact that he put his hands on it on the counter in front of cost me the losses.

Advice. If you buy used, follow all the precautions. But from now on, if anyone touches the watch after it's been authenticated, have it checked again.

Good luck and be careful out there.

Hello and thank you for the heads up in regards to what has happened to you, Ive read most of what others have said and the following has been going around in my head...........

Has the Watch Maker got any CCTV, did you check the sellers I.D. and ask for some proof of ownership? prior to any purchase I always check with Rolex the serial number, some numbers are well know, and finally receipts, I draw one up as a disclaimer just in case its an insurance scam and would ask for proof of address and would photograph his drivers licence...... I understand that some of this can be falsified however it offers up a little damage limitation in the event of something going wrong and would hopefully put of a scammer.

[007timer]

Hello and thank you for the heads up in regards to what has happened to you, Ive read most of what others have said and the following has been going around in my head...........

Has the Watch Maker got any CCTV, did you check the sellers I.D. and ask for some proof of ownership? prior to any purchase I always check with Rolex the serial number, some numbers are well know, and finally receipts, I draw one up as a disclaimer just in case its an insurance scam and would ask for proof of address and would photograph his drivers licence...... I understand that some of this can be falsified however it offers up a little damage limitation in the event of something going wrong and would hopefully put of a scammer.[/QUOTE]

Hi there. Yes, he had CCTV. Unfortunately they record on loop and erase the previous recording every 60 days. No luck in retrieving the footage. No ID check. The watch did not have box or papers, no way to verify proof of purchase. With regards to the DL being photographed, I as a seller with legitimate authentic goods would not want to give a picture of my license to a stranger, They can buy an authentic watch from me and then use my ID for identity theft which will cost a ton more damage than a fake watch. Not sure many would be willing to do it.

[Onikage]

Ouch. An obvious clone. Since the layout is correct the things to really worry about are not so obvious clones where all visible main parts are replaced with real ones, and not so visible parts are finished to a higher more Rolex-like standard. Rolex's control of parts availability means this is unlikely to ever be commonplace but it's still a concern of mine that potentially some a-hole could do it, and not being a watchmaker able to inspect/compare parts I'd be pretty screwed.
Nice to know the police are making progress with the OP, btw.

[LuminousMaximus]

just when you think you have heard everything...!

Sorry for the slight of hand, but thank you for notifying us. It is great that we can enlighten fellow members. So many scams...

[Thathorologist]

lots of things don’t make sense here.
Could it be that the kid (seller) switched the watch?
Did he take the watch back and called his “father” before committing to the deal?
That’s a better possibility In my opinion, and very Professional!