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13 December 2019, 11:08 AM | #61 | |
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I'd almost suggest trying for the RSC route but suspect they'll hit you back with a white service dial and not red. Reds seem to be impossible now. I'm kicking myself for not grabbing one years ago when they were cheap and available. |
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13 December 2019, 12:19 PM | #62 | |
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13 December 2019, 12:22 PM | #63 | |
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So he sold it ‘as is’ and didn’t use knowingly false or misleading language in his ad. What exactly are you using as justification for a refund? How were you duped? |
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13 December 2019, 12:28 PM | #64 |
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Dial is certainly relumed. Tritium Submariner dials from this period should not glow or react to UV.
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13 December 2019, 12:30 PM | #65 |
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13 December 2019, 12:41 PM | #66 |
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13 December 2019, 12:53 PM | #67 | |
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You definitely raise a fair point, though, and one I've spent today thinking over. I have no certainty. |
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13 December 2019, 12:53 PM | #68 |
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13 December 2019, 01:12 PM | #69 | |
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You don’t think sellers should disclose in an ad that a vintage watch has been relumed? |
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13 December 2019, 01:12 PM | #70 |
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Meh ... if you're talking about a dealer, then yes. But if you're talking about a run-of-the-mill owner, then not everyone is an expert on lume, or even cares about it. The buyer has to bear some responsibility as well, especially in a private as-is sale. In my view, if you're going to make a fuss about something like this after the fact, then you should just buy from dealers. With private sales, there is more responsibility for the buyer to do his own homework.
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13 December 2019, 01:28 PM | #71 | |
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"All my items are guaranteed authentic and I will stand by their authenticity 100%" Here's the original listing: https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=703024 That seems to establish that he'll stand behind the watch. That said, I also want to be reasonable and fair. Last edited by Cloudchaser; 13 December 2019 at 01:35 PM.. Reason: Clarity |
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13 December 2019, 01:40 PM | #72 |
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If I was in your situation, I would ask for a refund.
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13 December 2019, 01:54 PM | #73 |
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You must get a refund of some sort. The way seller described the dial is oh so misleading.
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13 December 2019, 02:02 PM | #74 | |
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I mean look at how many Threads have buyers talking about how scared they are to send a watch to RSC because they fear it might be stolen. In other words, all those buyers know they’re taking a risk when they buy second hand watches, i.e. a used watch. And yes, any watch not bought at an AD is used. Also, look at all the ‘is it fake’ threads. Even TRF members can’t agree if a watch is fake or not. So, no, I don’t think they’re disclosing it, because they don’t know, they can’t tell, and they’re not obligated to find out. Let’s ask the OP, did the seller guarantee that the dial was untouched? Or did he just say it was authentic? There’s a big difference. |
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13 December 2019, 02:02 PM | #75 |
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13 December 2019, 02:04 PM | #76 | |
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https://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=703024 He did guarantee "100% authenticity." I guarantee authenticity, too, as a means of re-assuring buyers that I'll stand behind the watch; I never guarantee 100% authenticity because I am 100% certain...I do it because I will 100% stand behind the watch. |
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13 December 2019, 02:04 PM | #77 |
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I have early 80s watches that do not glow....16660
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13 December 2019, 02:09 PM | #78 | |
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The Vintage Lesson You've All Heard About...
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Apparently seller sold the watch as “100% authentic”. A relume is by definition not authentic. If he didn’t know if it was or was not, he shouldn’t have made that statement. And it sounds like buyer relied on his statement of 100% authentic. Now how to address the length of time between sale and discovery. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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13 December 2019, 02:20 PM | #79 | |
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There are some subs from the 60s that do still glow to this day. These are zinc sulphide dials and hands. These stopped in 1967, to my knowledge. This particular example looks like a relume to me, with the lume bleeding out of the plots. It also has a strong glow, compared to what you would see on a zinc sulphide dial.. but this is my personal opinion. If you want expert opinion, take it to LA Watchworks in Pasadena. They'll tell you. As for what I would do, I would ask for a refund from the seller since it was not disclosed. A relumed piece does not have the same market price as an original dial/hands.
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13 December 2019, 02:21 PM | #80 |
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You should return it and get a full refund.
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13 December 2019, 02:22 PM | #81 |
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The Vintage Lesson You've All Heard About...
My 2¢
This case involves a partially described listing, a vintage watch being offered by a fairly new seller here ( less than 1 year), and an under-informed buyer. The listing... The seller disclosed a new 93150 bracelet. He should have disclosed a recut case in the posting - although the buyer learned Rolliworks had worked on it. He should have disclosed the relume too (presuming he knew it) or have stated he was unaware of its originality. The seller... Appears to be honest yet is apparently dragging his feet on a possible refund. The watch appears to be authentic but was reworked and his only promise was that the 1680 was authentic. However, he didn’t promise what he would do about it not being original. The buyer... IMHO, the advice should have been sought ahead of doing a deal for the watch. He apparently sells vintage himself here and could have seen that the case was obviously recut and that was a clue. But I can understand a buyer who is new to vintage watches not catching that. The buyer offers a generous return policy when he is selling other watches. But the seller didn’t say such in his listing. Bottom line, the price was high for this 1680 considering the 3 issues everyone already discussed. The fairest thing might be to engage a mutually agreed independent expert (along the lines of Springer or another member) who could inspect the watch and ascertain a fair adjustment (if the price was too high). I know that’s in a perfect world and wouldn’t be binding - just answering the OP’s question about what would be fair... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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13 December 2019, 02:24 PM | #82 |
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Oh boy... of course it matters!
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13 December 2019, 02:27 PM | #83 | |
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Well, I'd definitely be responsive (which the seller has been thus far), I'd definitely seek third party opinions, and I'd investigate ways that I could solve the problem for the buyer. And if someone came to me after 30 days with buyer's remorse or a small nick or a crystal scratch or something less significant, I'd probably stand firm. But when it comes to a matter of authenticity or originality, that feels different. To me, the bigger question now seems to be if this is an authenticity issue or not. Some clearly believe that a re-lumed watch is not "100% authentic." I happen to agree in the case of this watch and this description/guarantee. |
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13 December 2019, 02:29 PM | #84 | |
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The Vintage Lesson You've All Heard About...
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Yes good point about this being more than a month later. I have a different POV on reluming dials - the dial is authentic but not “untouched” nor “original” any longer. Of course the listing was silent on those points and should have been disclosed. It has been altered. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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13 December 2019, 02:36 PM | #85 | |
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I think you've accurately assessed the situation. To some extent, this is an example of an "under informed" buyer and an "under informed" seller, working together, each with good intentions but combining to mung up a vintage watch deal. I don't typically sell vintage, but the last couple of years have made me a magnet for watch offers (not complaining at all...really enjoyable), which is how the 1655 found me. Everything else is new, modern, and "neo-vintage," all of which with I'm far more comfortable than vintage. I definitely recognize my part in this. But I'm hoping that a couple of decent folks trying to do a deal the right way can come together to solve this reasonably. And toward that end, thank you again to everyone for all of this input, feedback, and advice! |
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13 December 2019, 02:37 PM | #86 |
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no expert
I'm not expert, but back in this era there were different applications of lume (i.e. Puffy or Flat). Different Dial Manufacturers, and even different compositions of luminous tritium paint that were being used.
As a result you can see tons of variety in terms of how dials can look, age, and react to UV light, even when they are close to eachother in terms of SN. I would definitely seek out a few opinions from experts on this matter....Did you happen to ask Rolliworks since they previously worked on this watch? |
13 December 2019, 02:39 PM | #87 | |
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13 December 2019, 02:45 PM | #88 | |
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I informed the seller, and he issued me a refund, even after a few weeks of having the watch.
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13 December 2019, 02:48 PM | #89 |
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Now that I've seen the original listing, I'm now curious what the market value would be on your watch. How much of a spread are we talking here?
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13 December 2019, 02:50 PM | #90 | ||
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