Oil vs electric....an interesting article

[Db7566]

Most the people arguing points here are doing well financially. The masses will not buy EV till they are cheaper. No one cares about the environment. Most people can’t even save for retirement. You think they are weighing the environmental benefits of a car powered by batteries?

Same goes with putting solar panels on homes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DLRIDES]

Originally Posted by Db7566

Most the people arguing points here are doing well financially. The masses will not buy EV till they are cheaper. No one cares about the environment. Most people can’t even save for retirement. You think they are weighing the environmental benefits of a car powered batteries?

Same goes with putting solar panels on homes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This

[airchitect]

Listen, I love cars, and planes, and the roar of a F12004 V10...... but at this point, regardless of jobs and the status quo, using fossil fuels is just flat out dumb. People try to make it something that can be debated, but reality is it’s very simple. The chemicals that come from burning this stuff wreak havoc on the environment. And with a depleting Amazon thanks to development, we are losing earths biggest air scrubber. When bad stuff > abilities to clean bad stuff, things go south. It’s not hard to understand. I can’t even believe it’s a political issue. Part of my fam is in coal. And every time I get a chance all I say is “get out while the getting is good”..... Even my wife (car nerd) has pledged her next ride will be a plug-in hybrid or ev no matter what. This isn’t rocket science, it’s just common sense. My mind gets boggled when people can’t understand that humanities actions and the things we create can destroy the planet. No other species does this. But has oil peaked? Prob not.... we will literally have to reach a point that’s irreversible before some folks will get it...

[TheVTCGuy]

Originally Posted by airchitect

Listen, I love cars, and planes, and the roar of a F12004 V10...... but at this point, regardless of jobs and the status quo, using fossil fuels is just flat out dumb. People try to make it something that can be debated, but reality is it’s very simple. The chemicals that come from burning this stuff wreak havoc on the environment. And with a depleting Amazon thanks to development, we are losing earths biggest air scrubber. When bad stuff > abilities to clean bad stuff, things go south. It’s not hard to understand. I can’t even believe it’s a political issue. Part of my fam is in coal. And every time I get a chance all I say is “get out while the getting is good”..... Even my wife (car nerd) has pledged her next ride will be a plug-in hybrid or ev no matter what. This isn’t rocket science, it’s just common sense. My mind gets boggled when people can’t understand that humanities actions and the things we create can destroy the planet. No other species does this. But has oil peaked? Prob not.... we will literally have to reach a point that’s irreversible before some folks will get it...

I agree, well said. Yes, there are issues with the production and disposal of batteries, and how to get clean energy to charge those batteries, (doesn’t do much good to burn dirty coal to charge a battery for a clean car) but they will (must) be overcome. Simple.

PS The next step will be Hydrogen.

[DLRIDES]

Originally Posted by airchitect

Listen, I love cars, and planes, and the roar of a F12004 V10...... but at this point, regardless of jobs and the status quo, using fossil fuels is just flat out dumb. People try to make it something that can be debated, but reality is it’s very simple. The chemicals that come from burning this stuff wreak havoc on the environment. And with a depleting Amazon thanks to development, we are losing earths biggest air scrubber. When bad stuff > abilities to clean bad stuff, things go south. It’s not hard to understand. I can’t even believe it’s a political issue. Part of my fam is in coal. And every time I get a chance all I say is “get out while the getting is good”..... Even my wife (car nerd) has pledged her next ride will be a plug-in hybrid or ev no matter what. This isn’t rocket science, it’s just common sense. My mind gets boggled when people can’t understand that humanities actions and the things we create can destroy the planet. No other species does this. But has oil peaked? Prob not.... we will literally have to reach a point that’s irreversible before some folks will get it...

I don’t think anyone here disagrees ..................... but the symbolism is out running the substance with EV use on a large scale. There seems to be little focus on the infrastructure, and a need to promote without regard for the former “is flat out dumb”. Until the following can be focused upon, it’s only a wish not a reality, in a large geographic area such as the US.


) 500 mile range and 15 minute charge
) Sufficient charge stations
) Mining/environmental capacity (very toxic materials for battery production)
) Battery/environmental recycling capacity (extremely difficult to recycle currently)
) EV taxing system to replace gas taxes (road maintenance/construction.
) Additional energy production. There is currently only three ways to produce electricity on a large scale .............. fossil fuels, hydro, or nuclear. We’re not going to be building additional dams or nuclear stations, so what’s remaining ?

[Blansky]

A very long read on lithium issues:

https://www.theguardian.com/news/202...ign=pockethits

[bondtoys]

Originally Posted by DLRIDES

) 500 mile range and 15 minute charge
) Sufficient charge stations
) Mining/environmental capacity (very toxic materials for battery production)
) Battery/environmental recycling capacity (extremely difficult to recycle currently)
) EV taxing system to replace gas taxes (road maintenance/construction.

LOL I am changing town every 2 years so, I need to own a moving truck!

How many people really need a 500 mile range on a regular basis.
Sounds a bit like: „I am not buying a Daytona until they go down to $2000,-„

[Blansky]

Originally Posted by bondtoys

How many people really need a 500 mile range on a regular basis.

I think a lot of it is mental. We have just grown up and lived our lives with the freedom of hopping in the car and going whenever and whenever we want. There is always a gas stations somewhere to keep us going.

With electric we just have to wrap our heads around the recharging issues and of course the issue of electric cars not being the best travel cars yet.

So perhaps an electric commuter car and a gas weekend/travel car in our garage. Or a electric commuter car and renting a vehicle for more extensive travel.

[airchitect]

Originally Posted by DLRIDES

I don’t think anyone here disagrees ..................... but the symbolism is out running the substance with EV use on a large scale. There seems to be little focus on the infrastructure, and a need to promote without regard for the former “is flat out dumb”. Until the following can be focused upon, it’s only a wish not a reality, in a large geographic area such as the US.


) 500 mile range and 15 minute charge
) Sufficient charge stations
) Mining/environmental capacity (very toxic materials for battery production)
) Battery/environmental recycling capacity (extremely difficult to recycle currently)
) EV taxing system to replace gas taxes (road maintenance/construction.
) Additional energy production. There is currently only three ways to produce electricity on a large scale .............. fossil fuels, hydro, or nuclear. We’re not going to be building additional dams or nuclear stations, so what’s remaining ?

Well we will hit a point where if we don’t move forward with something new.....quickly......we’ll find ourselves walking and cycling (which wouldn’t be awful) or worse yet, unable to exist. But you’re right, batteries aren’t quite perfect yet. Now if we could only undo 70yrs of suburban sprawl....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[chadwick4eva]

Originally Posted by Db7566

Most the people arguing points here are doing well financially. The masses will not buy EV till they are cheaper. No one cares about the environment. Most people can’t even save for retirement. You think they are weighing the environmental benefits of a car powered by batteries?

Same goes with putting solar panels on homes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're wrong. People do care about the environment. The idea that EVs are overly expensive is now a myth. You should do some research before making such claims.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...301104310.html

"The valuation analysts at Kelley Blue Book today reported the estimated average transaction price for a light vehicle in the United States was $38,378 in July 2020."

Purchase price of new base Tesla model 3 is ~$37,990. That's for a car with 260+ miles range and a 0-60 of 5.3 seconds. Pretty impressive.

https://www.tesla.com/model3/design#payment

A few years ago the statement that EVs are expensive might have been true, but now that economies of scale are starting to work their magic the price is coming down and will likely go down further in the future. An exciting inflection point in time for the auto industry. It's too bad that some of the great American auto manufacturers who used to be the great innovators of the world and extremely profitable couldn't see the writing on the wall decades ago and instead decided to double down on product that clearly was going to be disrupted in due time. It seems now it may be too little, too late for them.

[airchitect]

Originally Posted by chadwick4eva

You're wrong. People do care about the environment. The idea that EVs are overly expensive is now a myth. You should do some research before making such claims.

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...301104310.html

"The valuation analysts at Kelley Blue Book today reported the estimated average transaction price for a light vehicle in the United States was $38,378 in July 2020."

Purchase price of new base Tesla model 3 is ~$37,990. That's for a car with 260+ miles range and a 0-60 of 5.3 seconds. Pretty impressive.

https://www.tesla.com/model3/design#payment

A few years ago the statement that EVs are expensive might have been true, but now that economies of scale are starting to work their magic the price is coming down and will likely go down further in the future. An exciting inflection point in time for the auto industry. It's too bad that some of the great American auto manufacturers who used to be the great innovators of the world and extremely profitable couldn't see the writing on the wall decades ago and instead decided to double down on product that clearly was going to be disrupted in due time. It seems now it may be too little, too late for them.

True story here esp now with the release of the RAV4 Prime. Rivian, Tesla, the 100k Hummer EV are outliers in the automotive space. Yes Tesla currently dominates ev, but that’s a matter of necessity. Of course you’ll be dominant when you’re the only one in a space. But now that arguably the most reliable car company in extant has jumped into the mix, with a vehicle people still recognize as a vehicle, we may see real change. No it’s not 100% ev but it truly bridges the gap. Same for the Mach-E and the pending releases from VW, etc. People know these brands and will be a lot more willing to make the leap. Let’s remember, most people spend way too much on cars. Reality is, a person making 50k should be spending between 12.5k & 16.7k on a car and roughly 150-200k on a house, tops. But they never do. They pool the cash with their spouse and buy an 80k suburban (that’s why they can’t save for retirement). So if a great alternative comes into the mix at 35-40k we will see a rise in sails. And when that price is able to hit 20-25k from a Yota, Ford, GM, we will really see movement. And I’m not knocking Tesla. I’ve been in them, they’re cool. But they also seem like experiments. They’re very BETA. Nothing is assembled at a level remotely akin to a Lexus or Acura for example. What they do well are the electronics, software, powertrain.... not the actual construction of a car. But they will get there. Now for me and many on this forum, these vehicles also lack soul. And though we are the fringe, our EV’s and plug-in’s will have to be injected with it some how, some way......

Btw, anyone here drove a Taycan yet??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Db7566]

Tesla model 3 is 37k the average American makes mid 30s. Are you suggesting people spend more than their annual salary on a car so they can power it with coal burn electricity?

Of course there are plenty of people who do not own cars and plenty single vehicle households. (Willing to bet single vehicle homes are less likely to limit themselves with ev).

I am not against EV. Just saying this conversation is happening between a group of people who are most likely to buy them and it’s still a conversation. Therefore we are pretty far away from any real change.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[chadwick4eva]

Originally Posted by Db7566

Tesla model 3 is 37k the average American makes mid 30s. Are you suggesting people spend more than their annual salary on a car so they can power it with coal burn electricity?

Of course there are plenty of people who do not own cars and plenty single vehicle households. (Willing to bet single vehicle homes are less likely to limit themselves with ev).

I am not against EV. Just saying this conversation is happening between a group of people who are most likely to buy them and it’s still a conversation. Therefore we are pretty far away from any real change.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I can tell you're having a tough time seeing the bigger picture here so I'll try to explain it to you as simply as I can. Seems like you're a little hung up on the economics- just so you know we are at the very beginning of this story, not close to the end at all. As I said earlier, economies of scale are really starting to work in the favor of electric vehicles, as well as other forms of electricity. In the past these were expensive to produce because they were novel technologies- they had a lot of research and development costs associated with them, and those costs really crushed potential margins of being able to create a profitable business based on those technologies, especially at scale. Scale is not something that is achieved overnight- its something you do after you have advanced your product to a point where you think you are really ready to go after market share. The technologies were also much less efficient in decades past than they were today. Now we are at a point where significant R&D expenditures have happened by multiple players around the world- not only EV manufactures like tesla, but battery companies like panasonic, energy companies like nextera energy, etc. These companies now not only understand how to produce a more efficient product but to do it in a much more cost effective manner.

It's important to note that EVs are not the complete endgame here- there will clearly need to be some reliance on coal, natural gas, and fossil fuels to power every home, and thus every EV charge. However, the more and more that humanity can transition not only the totality of electricity production to cleaner production methods (like wind, solar, hydro, geothermal, nuclear), but also the fossil fuel burn from automobiles, the more and more we can reduce the carbon footprint that as a whole we are all generating. Not only would this be awesome for the people who live in cities that suffer heavily from pollution- think smog in LA, Tokyo, Shanghai, etc- leading to better air quality for the citizenry who live there, but it is the hope of many that reducing this carbon footprint can also somewhat alleviate the unfavorable climate change that has been happening over the last couple of centuries.

Hope that clears thing up a little bit

[chadwick4eva]

Originally Posted by airchitect

True story here esp now with the release of the RAV4 Prime. Rivian, Tesla, the 100k Hummer EV are outliers in the automotive space. Yes Tesla currently dominates ev, but that’s a matter of necessity. Of course you’ll be dominant when you’re the only one in a space. But now that arguably the most reliable car company in extant has jumped into the mix, with a vehicle people still recognize as a vehicle, we may see real change. No it’s not 100% ev but it truly bridges the gap. Same for the Mach-E and the pending releases from VW, etc. People know these brands and will be a lot more willing to make the leap. Let’s remember, most people spend way too much on cars. Reality is, a person making 50k should be spending between 12.5k & 16.7k on a car and roughly 150-200k on a house, tops. But they never do. They pool the cash with their spouse and buy an 80k suburban (that’s why they can’t save for retirement). So if a great alternative comes into the mix at 35-40k we will see a rise in sails. And when that price is able to hit 20-25k from a Yota, Ford, GM, we will really see movement. And I’m not knocking Tesla. I’ve been in them, they’re cool. But they also seem like experiments. They’re very BETA. Nothing is assembled at a level remotely akin to a Lexus or Acura for example. What they do well are the electronics, software, powertrain.... not the actual construction of a car. But they will get there. Now for me and many on this forum, these vehicles also lack soul. And though we are the fringe, our EV’s and plug-in’s will have to be injected with it some how, some way......

Btw, anyone here drove a Taycan yet??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Haven't driven one but saw one in the flesh finally a few weeks back. Looked nice but I do prefer the design of the 911 and cayman to it. The design is less exciting than the sportier models for sure. In 3-5 years time I'll probably be looking at buying a new car and will definitely be going the EV route- hopefully porsche can improve on their current EV tech and get some longer range batteries in their models. We'll see.

Tesla is such a juggernaut right now and it makes me wonder if anyone can ever actually catch up to them- Elon can raise $5 billion in cash with a snap of a finger at less than 1% of the market cap of the company. Essentially he can add scale, create new products, or advance R&D in whatever area he sees fit whenever he wants to. For reference- Ford's operating income from 2015 to 2019 was ~$5 billion, and that's before they had to service their mountain of debt. As I said earlier, the writing is likely on the wall for many of these companies and it's likely going to be too little, too late. Let's just hope that the government decides not to bail them out again with taxpayer dollars after management at those companies insisted on doubling down on stubbornness over and over again.

[Db7566]

I am sure you have provided some valid information, but I couldn’t get past your condescending tone to read any of it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[DLRIDES]

Originally Posted by chadwick4eva

I can tell you're having a tough time seeing the bigger picture here so I'll try to explain it to you as simply as I can.

Dear most glorious master,

We inferior intelligence life forms here on the forum are fortunate to be graced by your presence, and undoubtedly far superior thought processes. The simple words “Thank You” are insufficient, your excellency.

[chadwick4eva]

Originally Posted by DLRIDES

Dear most glorious master,

We inferior intelligence life forms here on the forum are fortunate to be graced by your presence, and undoubtedly far superior thought processes. The simple words “Thank You” are insufficient, your excellency.

Yikes.

Wishing you and your family a happy holidays.