AD Selling out the back door? - Here’s pictures!

[BraveBold]

Not saying this is the case here (no opinion), but anyone who thinks an AD would NOT risk their livelihood, dealer status etc to risk this… you are living in fantasy land. Many, many very wealthy people engage in fraud and other activities at all levels. Almost amusingly I recently looked at three nice homes and all three… every one of them… had owners who were previously convicted or currently charged with financial related crimes. Bizarre coincidence, sure. All three in the medical space too. Doctors and dentists who apparently were willing to risk career and licenses to make more money.

So I have zero doubt that many unethical/illicit practices go on when the potential to make a lot more $$$ is dangled in front of AD’s noses.

Again, nothing to do with this example, just a response to the naivety of those who doubt dealers would take these risks…

[massabee]

When I heard about this sort of thing happening, in say the early 2000s, it was more along the lines of taking your AD to lunch, maybe some gifts, and also making it clear that you'd buy every watch that was offered to you, and quickly.

And nothing was ever sold above MSRP.

If we go back to a situation where most Rolexes are available without a waiting list, I wouldn't blame ADs for selling mostly only to people who buy 'em ALL and don't pick and choose.

[Krash]

Those photos are inconclusive. I could have taken photos when I purchased my GMT, posted them, and then make the same claim.

But I’m not saying it isn’t true.

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[panerai-lover111]

This has been happening for years and I'd say decades.

I am best friends with a diamond dealer and he gets calls from the local ADs all the time. He has told me some shonky stories that happens everywhere with watches.

There are just some ppl that are so naive that think this kind of stuff that doesnt happen.

Heck there was 100s of millions laundered through crypto and watches around the world. You guys have no idea.

[TimeToTell]

Originally Posted by csaltphoto

I've said it before. To us they are "flippers". To the AD they are "great customers". That guy might buy 50-100K of watches a month. Most of us can't be at that level.

Not inaccurate but the spend potential of large pool of eager buyers awaiting watches far exceeds $100k per months. The missing link is the hesitation to kickback money and/or jewelry spend.

[salnuaimi]

looks like a flipper selling his watch to a dealer

[huncho]

Originally Posted by Number3

The VTNR is dated Friday!

yeah i mean it looks like 2 different people wrote that date. to me it's hard to tell if that's a 13 or 23 because it looks nothing like the other 2's in "2024" and realistically no human is gonna write a number exactly alike twice and completely different a 3rd time

[Mystro]

What does it matter at this point as nothing is changing. We are where we are if you want to buy a Rolex. The only parties that matter are getting paid (Rolex and AD).

[jb335]

Originally Posted by Emery

Besides, don’t US ADs date their cards MM/DD/YY?

No, the format is still DD/MM/YY on US cards even though sometimes the AD screws it up.


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[Roger Lococco]

https://thetyee.ca/News/2022/05/02/T...er-Bling-King/


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[BillA]

Perhaps some good news with the watch market tanking, the greys are not lining up at the back door to buy, more watches for us.

[garyk]

Originally Posted by NAUI1982

I’ve been on the list at this AD for a very very long time. I stop by and see my SA pretty regularly, and there is NEVER anything available. I email with her too, trading updates and stories to keep the conversation going. I never get the call, and never hear from them aside from my stopping by when driving through the neighborhood.

Now I know why. Because they’re selling their inventory out the back door to the grey market and not to us, the end consumer.

The system is broken! And it’s ADs like this that give the entire system a bad rep.

Will Rolex do anything about it, nope. This AD is one of the biggest in Los Angeles.

I know which dealer you mean and I’m sure if this is accurate information, maybe some good will come of this?

[subtona]

Originally Posted by massabee

The AD can't report sales above MSRP, so now we're talking about tax evasion and a criminal conspiracy to hide the sales so they aren't reported in any way?

More likely is just a bunch of sore potential buyers getting shut out by others who buy more and more regularly, and hatching up conspiracy theories.

This sort of thing (kickbacks) probably has happened but to assume it happens regularly seems to be going too far.

Just taking a shot at the AD’s and all the years (34 years and counting) of BS.

On the flip side there are many out there trying to build relationships who would buy multiple watches if they were given the opportunity.

It’s just too much BS.

[KatGirl]

Originally Posted by massabee

The AD has to sell at MSRP.

So,

What is the benefit to the AD unless it is a model it can't sell? On higher demand models the AD would just as soon sell to regular people I am sure versus flippers. But what does a flipper look like anyway, does he have three arms or three eyes stands out easily?

And if it is a lower demand model the AD can't sell like Datejusts or two tones what do you care who buys it?

Obviously if any ADs knowingly sell to greys, they get a kick back (under the table) from the grey dealer.

Kat


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[Harry-57]

Originally Posted by huncho

could be a flipper, could be back dooring. the point is we don't know from those pictures and they don't prove anything, unlike the title of this thread implies

This.

Is backdooring is illegal? The watch trade does plenty of B2B transactions. If Rolex forbids it the OP can send his evidence to HQ and the AD will be dealt with. If Rolex doesn't care one should not take it personally.

[Guppydriver]

Originally Posted by Kinnakeet

I know people who have purchased from greys off this site who’s watches has been shipped from that AD.

How has Michelle’s post here not been quoted? I did a double take. I know she doesn’t have photo evidence, but if someone buys from a third party and it’s shipped directly from an AD…….

That’s as irrefutable proof that your will ever see that (some) AD’s are knowingly engaged in a operation that violates their retail agreement. The hubris is so great that not only do they not try to hide it, but they essentially do the shipping work of the gray dealer just to save time.

[KatGirl]

Originally Posted by garyk

I know which dealer you mean and I’m sure if this is accurate information, maybe some good will come of this?

Don’t get your hopes up. If a dealer has a nickname that shows that he has been violating Rolex policy, with impunity for years, sadly nothing is bound to change. The good news is not all ADs engage in this practice. There are some good ADs out there. You just have to find them.

Kat


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[LndLord]

Originally Posted by BraveBold

Not saying this is the case here (no opinion), but anyone who thinks an AD would NOT risk their livelihood, dealer status etc to risk this… you are living in fantasy land. Many, many very wealthy people engage in fraud and other activities at all levels. Almost amusingly I recently looked at three nice homes and all three… every one of them… had owners who were previously convicted or currently charged with financial related crimes. Bizarre coincidence, sure. All three in the medical space too. Doctors and dentists who apparently were willing to risk career and licenses to make more money.

So I have zero doubt that many unethical/illicit practices go on when the potential to make a lot more $$$ is dangled in front of AD’s noses.

Again, nothing to do with this example, just a response to the naivety of those who doubt dealers would take these risks…

lol you dont even have to bring up stories. Its culture at this point.
Just sad

[Fleetlord]

Funny how NOBODY complained about AD drop shipping or selling to flippers when cases were stuffed with watches and grey prices on NIB were 15% to 20% off retail.

[massabee]

Originally Posted by massabee

The AD has to sell at MSRP.

So,

What is the benefit to the AD unless it is a model it can't sell? On higher demand models the AD would just as soon sell to regular people I am sure versus flippers. But what does a flipper look like anyway, does he have three arms or three eyes stands out easily?

And if it is a lower demand model the AD can't sell like Datejusts or two tones what do you care who buys it?

Originally Posted by massabee

The AD can't report sales above MSRP, so now we're talking about tax evasion and a criminal conspiracy to hide the sales so they aren't reported in any way?

More likely is just a bunch of sore potential buyers getting shut out by others who buy more and more regularly, and hatching up conspiracy theories.

This sort of thing (kickbacks) probably has happened but to assume it happens regularly seems to be going too far.

Originally Posted by KatGirl

Obviously if any ADs knowingly sell to greys, they get a kick back (under the table) from the grey dealer.

And that is tax evasion.

[Littletommy]

Originally Posted by massabee

And that is tax evasion.

You're assuming that the AD didn't report the funds he received above MSRP. The IRS doesn't care if he charges above MSRP for a watch. All they care about is getting their cut of it.

It is not tax evasion if the income is reported.

[puma1552]

Originally Posted by Guppydriver

How has Michelle’s post here not been quoted? I did a double take. I know she doesn’t have photo evidence, but if someone buys from a third party and it’s shipped directly from an AD…….

That’s as irrefutable proof that your will ever see that (some) AD’s are knowingly engaged in a operation that violates their retail agreement. The hubris is so great that not only do they not try to hide it, but they essentially do the shipping work of the gray dealer just to save time.

Agreed, it really seems like a lot of people here have their head in the sand on this. This AD has a nickname of "Backdoor Bhindi" and has a lot of really bad 1 star reviews; and the business's response to a lot of them is pretty telling about how crappy they seem to be.

People are in here saying that the gray dealer wouldn't be so stupid as to post a series of photos of a bulk AD purchase and that these must all be separate purchases flipped to the grey...well, who posted the series of pictures in a single instagram/facebook story? Look at the progress bar at the top of the snips, this is a series of photos making up one social media "story" so the gray dealer certainly is stupid regardless of what's going on. They are either shamelessly advertising their bulk purchase from the AD, or they are (unlikely) just happening to be coagulating a lot of individual flip purchases into a single story so that it looks like an incriminating bulk AD purchase? lol.

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...

[Robison347]

With all due respect to the folks who are offended by these sorts of practices . . . .

Rolex dealers are independent businesses. They sign agreements with Rolex as to how they conduct their business, but they may or may not abide by what they signed. Each dealer must consider their ethical position and the trade off of more sales, or more profit, versus risk to their franchise.

I agree that an AD has no incentive to sell stainless GMTs or Daytonas to a grey dealer, but what if Rolex sends that dealer PM and jeweled pieces that are very hard to sell in their market? To stay a dealer, they have to sell those too. And it may be that some dealers package watches like that at a discount with GMT and Daytona and such in order to keep things moving.

It’s not so simple as some make it seem. If the dealer has no ready way to sell certain watches that Rolex requires them to take, what are they to do? Not every dealer is in a major market where people are lining up for every single model.

But putting that aside, how does that affect any of us, wanting to buy a particular watch? Surely most dealers will choose to sell watches to real local customers who will wear them, and return over the years, than to sell a large fraction of their stock to grey dealers. The grey dealers are too much of a risk for most small dealers to do that. I think the reality is that even a small dealer probably has 50 people who have asked for something popular like a Bruce Wayne, and they only get a few, and if you are not high on the list . . . .

There is nothing wrong or unfair in that, and not much any of us can do. Except we can give up on waiting and pay the price because there are always new models that reach the secondary market and they find their level in terms of price. We can choose the level, or wait.

[puma1552]

Originally Posted by Robison347

Rolex dealers are independent businesses. They sign agreements with Rolex as to how they conduct their business, but they may or may not abide by what they signed. Each dealer must consider their ethical position and the trade off of more sales, or more profit, versus risk to their franchise.

I agree that an AD has no incentive to sell stainless GMTs or Daytonas to a grey dealer, but what if Rolex sends that dealer PM and jeweled pieces that are very hard to sell in their market? To stay a dealer, they have to sell those too. And it may be that some dealers package watches like that at a discount with GMT and Daytona and such in order to keep things moving.

It’s not so simple as some make it seem. If the dealer has no ready way to sell certain watches that Rolex requires them to take, what are they to do? Not every dealer is in a major market where people are lining up for every single model.

I mean, then they should reconsider becoming a Rolex dealer to begin with if they can't justify the business case.

Imagine if someone here posted that they had become a Rolex AD and they were struggling to move pieces in their market etc. etc...that person would be absolutely roasted for having made a poor business decision to become a Rolex AD when there apparently wasn't a good business justification to do so when/if following the rules.

On that note though, it's moot because we are talking specifically about a large market AD that almost surely can sell everything Rolex sends them.

Nobody should be pulling out the world's smallest violin for a large market AD stuck sitting on some PM/diamond pieces when their margin at retail is like 35% and their margin on all the other tennis bracelet junk they sell is even higher.

If it's too hard to become a Rolex AD, don't become one. You know what you're signing up for when you become one, so it's up to you to stay ethical and follow the agreement you sign just like in any other business. If you choose not to follow that, then you don't deserve to be defended imo.

[Mrngrz46]

Well so many Rolex including 2 hot cake sold to 1 person same day if is not a reseller …..

You bhindi mtf

[dnd2984]

This is old news. System is not broken, this IS the system.

[massabee]

Originally Posted by massabee

And that is tax evasion.

Originally Posted by Littletommy

You're assuming that the AD didn't report the funds he received above MSRP. The IRS doesn't care if he charges above MSRP for a watch. All they care about is getting their cut of it.

It is not tax evasion if the income is reported.

This forum's quoting of posts system is pretty antiquated. Have to go back and find your own post to quote it plus quote the post you are quoting.

We may safely assume these kickbacks are cash?

Anyway, we may assume that there are no 10K / 24 hours CTR reporting requirements, I mean I doubt each single kickback per day from one person is over ten grand, but if so, and the dealer doesn't report the cash received, that violates AML laws too.

And then as far as reporting the kickbacks, cash or not, report them, as what? The sale of something or other? Pure profit received on top of the sale of something or other? Obviously each scenario involves falsehoods.

You have to get your arms around this sort of thing as well as realize that any AP willing to do this would be crooked in the first place to understand what would be going on here, IF it is going on at all.

There is nothing legitimate about this practice, and would involve a tangled web of deceit towards both Rolex International and the government.

[Littletommy]

You make a lot of assumptions. I’ll leave it at that.

[1259]

Hopefully Rolex does something about this. Somehow I doubt the will.

[mideastwatchguy]

Wow that is suspicious..


But it just doesn't make sense - if this is a regular grey dealer that they are selling watches to in bulk, why would be burn the place by posting the ADs name