Flu Shot

[Zakalwe]

Originally Posted by Cryten

I'm not so much casting doubt on safety, as arguing the risk/benefit ratio, which for me is the risk of injecting these substances into my body vs the unproven benefit. Ask me again in 20-30 years and you may find me lining up for a jab, but for now any possible benefit ("probably" around 1% as per the study you cite) is outweighed by the risks.

The egg and wheat protein issue will likely never be proven as any proper scientific trial would fail the ethical test long before it got off the ground, so you're right on that one. However there is enough circumstantial evidence to suggest a link so once again there's a risk/benefit equation for people to weigh for themselves.

for highlighting some common ground despite our differing views.

The reasoning you’ve provided for your own decision makes sense. So I feel churlish pointing out that whilst you’re correct that no gold standard randomised controlled trials exist to test theories about vaccines causing allergies, there is probably more than enough data out there that if a causal link did exist it would be picked up by cohort and observational studies. I’ll stop flogging the equine corpse now.

Another point, not really directed at you, more for the thread in general: taking (for arguments sake) the 1% figure for the reduction in incidence of ‘flu in the vaccinated, that clearly implies that the chances of a single healthy individual deriving any benefit from the vaccine is slim. On a population level though 1% is nevertheless hugely significant - 10000 fewer cases of ‘flu per million infected in any given season reduces the burden on health services and increases economic output through reducing time taken off work due to sickness, without mentioning the reduced exposure of the virus to people in at-risk groups e.g. the very elderly, very young and chronically ill.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by daveathall

I get it every year, it's free for me.

I haven't had the chance to ask those that have died from flu after not having the shot if they regret their decision.

I almost died from the flu after having had the shot. I regret wasting my time getting the useless shot.

FWIW, I’ve had just about every vaccine there is. Deployments to far away places necessitates them. But, they were all (except maybe the anthrax) proven to be effective. Proven vaccines are a godsend, and I encourage people to get them.

The annual flu vaccine is hope in a needle, not an actual preventative medicine.

[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by locutus49

These are hard facts, and conspiracy theorists don't like facts. Well, they like internet facts, not real facts.

Here is an excellent opportunity for you to present your fact based argument, rather than calling someone a conspiracy theorist. Peer reviewed citations will be the standard, of course.

I believe most of 77Ts facts are internet based as well. Careful whose side you take, you may end on the tin hat side and not know it.

[Headshrinker]

I have to get a flu shot as I volunteer as an EMT in my town.

[Art 1]

Never have, probably never will.

[77T]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

I believe most of 77Ts facts are internet based as well. Careful whose side you take, you may end on the tin hat side and not know it.

My statements were directly from the CDC report for the 2019-2020 flu vax’s.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/season/faq-f..._1568639025080

The celiac disease info was gleaned from a National Institute of Health study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5434426/

And citations by Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health plus Dr. Peter Green, director of the Celiac Disease Center at Columbia University.

Although I used the Internet, I stayed away from hype sites and went to professional organizations dealing with the facts.

I believe we are agreeing that getting a flu shot is worth the effort albeit a 50/50 shot of immunizing one against the strain that breaks out the worst.

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[pickettt]

Originally Posted by 77T

My statements were directly from the CDC report for the 2019-2020 flu vax’s.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/season/faq-f..._1568639025080

The CDC suggests you get the vaccine, that part is clear. Is there any scientific evidence there that indicates the vaccine works? I did read it, as well as the embedded links.

[77T]

Originally Posted by pickettt

Is there any scientific evidence there that indicates the vaccine works? I did read it, as well as the embedded links. The CDC suggests you get the vaccine, that part is clear.

Well that is the $64,000 question of course for this year’s influenza strains. The answer is yes, scientific studies are done - in fact that’s how the CDC measures their effectiveness at blending the following year’s batches.

Here is what CDC says about flu vax efficacy studies: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-wor...tivenessqa.htm


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[77T]

I should add a sidebar here...

I take no sides in the debate of vaccination. It is a personal choice and one person’s choice is as good as another’s. I can see both sides of the issue.

Like any other opinion, I respect the owner. If I have access to info, I’ll share it but it is only that - info to consider.

Given the past success rates (or lack thereof) it’s anyone’s guess who will get which strain of the virus - or none at all.

I support healthy debate as long as it can stay healthy and not devolve into snide remarks questioning one’s motive, intelligence or bias.


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[pickettt]

Originally Posted by 77T

I should add a sidebar here...

I take no sides in the debate of vaccination. It is a personal choice and one person’s choice is as good as another’s. I can see both sides of the issue.

Like any other opinion, I respect the owner. If I have access to info, I’ll share it but it is only that - info to consider.

Given the past success rates (or lack thereof) its anyone’s guess who will get which strain of the virus.

I support healthy debate as long as it can stay healthy and not devolve into snide remarks questioning one’s motive, intelligence or bias.


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I agree, and I think this discussion has been rather civil, considering the hot button issue that it is.

[yoniman]

Originally Posted by THC

Got mine today, as I do every year... how many TRF peeps get flu shots?

Also interested to see if this is just a USA thing or do other countries offer these.

(No Syringe emoji available )

Got mine awhile back.
And it's free over here.


It's just all about health, happiness & family. The rest are just necessary inconvenience we have to deal with.

[Cesium137]

Originally Posted by Bigblu10

My sentiments exactly.

[rolehex]

For those, "in the Know", isn't THIS years shot based off of LAST years strain? So they really don't now if it will work or not.

[R G]

Originally Posted by SunTzu

Sound reasoning. It's not just for you but also the people around you. May your baby boy remain healthy and hardy!



Similar reasoning for the MMR vaccine in children. MMR is highly contagious and can be deadly.

Ah, thank you very much! That’s kind of you.

My wife’s idea, I would have overlooked it as I’ve always associated the flu shot with people of a senior age. As you say, though, a very good reason to have it.

Cheers

[SearChart]

Originally Posted by 77T

I should add a sidebar here...

I take no sides in the debate of vaccination. It is a personal choice and one person’s choice is as good as another’s. I can see both sides of the issue.

Like any other opinion, I respect the owner. If I have access to info, I’ll share it but it is only that - info to consider.

Given the past success rates (or lack thereof) it’s anyone’s guess who will get which strain of the virus - or none at all.

I support healthy debate as long as it can stay healthy and not devolve into snide remarks questioning one’s motive, intelligence or bias.


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Vaccination in general is a very very good thing. A flu shot, don't know. Just not as common here for folks under 60. I will definitely get them when I reach old age.

[Rolex Essex]

I had a flu jab once and never again I’ll have it done.
It actually gave me the flu for a few days.

In UK the NHS provides free flu jabs for old people and anyone who has asthma.

[R G]

Originally Posted by Rolex Essex

I had a flu jab once and never again I’ll have it done.
It actually gave me the flu for a few days.

In UK the NHS provides free flu jabs for old people and anyone who has asthma.

That’s a coincidence.

The vaccine doesn’t contain any live serum.

It’s a common response that people say they got unwell after it, but if you actually already have a virus, it can exacerbate things.

[Rock]

Gee, I dunno...
All I know is that there are a lot of folks dying of the "Flu" every year and if I can create a bit of a hedge by having the 'Flu shot' then I will do it.
I really think that the Japanese have the right idea with the masks...anybody who has any symptoms (or thought that they have it) should be wearing one and the rest of us should probably be taking precautions also.
I stay away from the supermarket or other places where lots of people congregate.

[Joeguy]

I live in the US, so can’t provide a comparison for the second part. A shot is probably worthwhile if you have small kids or the elderly in your home. It might keep you from bringing something home that could kill them.

That said, I never get one. No science here probably, but everything in your body has a finite life span and will eventually wear out. I don’t see any reason for a healthy person to constantly ramp up their immune system for a strain that they will most likely not encounter.

Before I retired, I made contact with thousands of sick people yearly in some very unsanitary conditions. I would get sick once a year and then be fine. Most of my co-workers got the work-issued flu shot and they also would get sick once a year, plus feel bad for a day or two after receiving the shot.
If you aren’t very old, very young, or very unhealthy I think you’re better off trusting your own biology.


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[Abdullah71601]

Originally Posted by 77T

Well that is the $64,000 question of course for this year’s influenza strains. The answer is yes, scientific studies are done - in fact that’s how the CDC measures their effectiveness at blending the following year’s batches.

Here is what CDC says about flu vax efficacy studies: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/vaccines-wor...tivenessqa.htm


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From your link
“It is not possible to predict how well the vaccine and circulating strains will be matched in advance of the influenza season, nor is it possible to predict how this match may affect vaccine effectiveness.”

Pretty much what I wrote in a prior post. It’s a SWAG. They hope it works.

People can decide for themselves, but I prefer to avoid treatment based on a guess.

[returntorolex]

Originally Posted by jrubero

Got my first shingles vaccine right after the flu shot.. It hit me pretty good the next day I felt like I ran a marathon and then got beat up at the finish line.. Only last like 24 hours and I going in November to get the second shingles vaccine. Getting old is no fun...

Ditto. Flu shot in early Oct then round 1 of shingles vaccine last week. The shingles vaccine made the arm sore for about a week, thanks for reminding me about the follow up shot.

[daveathall]

I think it is all a matter of choice. I dont think anyone is going to change their minds.

I have had the Flu jab for many years, during that time I have not had Flu. Was it because of the inoculation? I have absolutely no idea.

Have I had any adverse side effects by having the inoculation? No, I haven't, I can say that with a large amount of certainty.

Bearing the above in mind, I will continue to get the Flu jab.

Others may have had different experiences and due to that will not get it, that is the great thing about freedom of choice. My mother in law absolutely will not get it, no matter how my wife and her sister try to persuade her.

[Rebel]

I got one yesterday.

I'm a United Methodist Pastor. We had an open food pantry yesterday and offered flu shots via a national provider. Our staff and food receipients were provided a shot free of charge. Volunteer basis, of course.

[77T]

Originally Posted by Abdullah71601

From your link
“It is not possible to predict how well the vaccine and circulating strains will be matched in advance of the influenza season, nor is it possible to predict how this match may affect vaccine effectiveness.”

Pretty much what I wrote in a prior post. It’s a SWAG. They hope it works.

People can decide for themselves, but I prefer to avoid treatment based on a guess.

Yeah we agree on the quote. I was sharing the link to answer Pickett’s question.

As for SWAG, I’d say there’s a lot more S involved than WAG.

Also agree that people should assess their circumstances beforehand - age, immune system, environs and geography all play a role in the risk/reward choice.

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[tadbart]

It is "volunmandatory" to get it at work. You don't have to get it, but your insurance premium more than doubles. Oh, and you have to wear a mask from Dec1 to Apr30.

I get it, but I worry about catching the autism every time.

[tadbart]

Originally Posted by Plastique999

I do and so do all my nurses and staff...if not, they are to wear masks for 3 months. It’s a huge problem when one doesn’t get the flu shot and then gets sick, then my whole staff gets sick....has happened before.


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your whole staff who got the vaccination...?

[77T]

Originally Posted by tadbart

your whole staff who got the vaccination...?

I thought the same thing. But the conflation made me do a 2-step...with many branches of chance included.

The un-immunized staffer may have contracted a flu strain that was resistant, recombinant or never targeted in the vax that year. Then the immunized staff may have contracted that strain of the flu...

Because...

If the un-immunized staffer had contracted a flu strain that the vax protected against, then the staff shouldn’t have been susceptible.

Or...

Any of the staff may have contracted an unprotected strain, been asymptomatic but became a carrier, and then passed it on to the rest of the staff.

It’s all too “iffy” to apply cause and effect in an office setting.

I believe we sometimes conflate from our past experience and then believe what we want to believe.


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[THC]

Originally Posted by Rock

Gee, I dunno...
All I know is that there are a lot of folks dying of the "Flu" every year and if I can create a bit of a hedge by having the 'Flu shot' then I will do it.
I really think that the Japanese have the right idea with the masks...anybody who has any symptoms (or thought that they have it) should be wearing one and the rest of us should probably be taking precautions also.
I stay away from the supermarket or other places where lots of people congregate.

Agree Rocky

[Toony]

Idk anything about the debate. I know I got the flu once and never want to get it again. I’ve been getting the shot ever since.

[Sperry]

I'm constantly amazed at the number of supposedly educated people who regularly rub their eyes, nose, ears, shake hands, rub their eyes again, who have not realized the relationship between spreading germs and getting sick.

Yes to the flu shot. Arm was sore for 48 hours. But not as bad as the extra dozen laps in the ymca pool I should have skipped.