The Vintage Lesson You've All Heard About...

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by mrs_LA

I purchased a watch from a "trusted seller" here on TRF. I was very happy with the watch, until I found out a few weeks after that the hands had been relumed and color matched. The listing was described as "all original"

I informed the seller, and he issued me a refund, even after a few weeks of having the watch.

I would do the same. Altered/un-original/not authentic watch issues don't really "expire," or shouldn't (within reason of course), if the deal is in good faith.

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by 037

Now that I've seen the original listing, I'm now curious what the market value would be on your watch. How much of a spread are we talking here?

Thousands


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[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by 037

Now that I've seen the original listing, I'm now curious what the market value would be on your watch. How much of a spread are we talking here?

For me, that now becomes the most important matter...what is the difference between the fair market value for the watch if original and the value of the altered watch?

Given what I paid and what the offers were on my listing (before I learned that it was re-lumed), I think it's safe to say that the fair market value of a non-papered, original 1970 1680 is about $16,500 (I'm sure more established vintage seller would fetch more for what is now a theoretical watch).

What's the value of a red 1680 with an altered dial and hands?

To me, the reasonable solution involves solving for and addressing that delta. But I'm not exactly objective here...though trying to be.

[1665fan]

I would say 8-9k max and the only person who would buy it probably has original hands and dial to put in there....but maybe after a year or two somebody might buy it who doesn’t care or wants his watch to glow at night for 60 seconds

[1665fan]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

I checked in with the seller earlier today and he said he'd check in on this thread to catch up (he's three hours ahead). His only response thus far is that it shouldn't matter or affect value...

That’s beyond BS....goes from 18k sellable watch to 10 or less tough sale

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by 1665fan

That’s beyond BS....goes from 18k sellable watch to 10 or less tough sale

That's indeed my fear.

[springer]

Originally Posted by 77T

My 2¢
This case involves a partially described listing, a vintage watch being offered by a fairly new seller here ( less than 1 year), and an under-informed buyer.

The listing...
The seller disclosed a new 93150 bracelet.
He should have disclosed a recut case in the posting - although the buyer learned Rolliworks had worked on it.
He should have disclosed the relume too (presuming he knew it) or have stated he was unaware of its originality.

The seller...
Appears to be honest yet is apparently dragging his feet on a possible refund. The watch appears to be authentic but was reworked and his only promise was that the 1680 was authentic. However, he didn’t promise what he would do about it not being original.

The buyer...
IMHO, the advice should have been sought ahead of doing a deal for the watch. He apparently sells vintage himself here and could have seen that the case was obviously recut and that was a clue. But I can understand a buyer who is new to vintage watches not catching that. The buyer offers a generous return policy when he is selling other watches. But the seller didn’t say such in his listing.

Bottom line, the price was high for this 1680 considering the 3 issues everyone already discussed.

The fairest thing might be to engage a mutually agreed independent expert (along the lines of Springer or another member) who could inspect the watch and ascertain a fair adjustment (if the price was too high).

I know that’s in a perfect world and wouldn’t be binding - just answering the OP’s question about what would be fair...



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What's the issue with having a case refinished or as you refer to it as "recut" which I assume means the same thing?

[1665fan]

Originally Posted by springer

What's the issue with having a case refinished or as you refer to it as "recut" which I assume means the same thing?

Recut/refinish/polish is all about the same and not the problem...75% of value is in dial and hands as we know.....now laser welding and selling as NOS is big problem and will probably start happening soon

[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by springer

What's the issue with having a case refinished or as you refer to it as "recut" which I assume means the same thing?

This is a topic I would like to see expanded upon.

[TimeLord2]

Originally Posted by 1665fan

Recut/refinish/polish is all about the same and not the problem...75% of value is in dial and hands as we know.....now laser welding and selling as NOS is big problem and will probably start happening soon

Already happening I am quite sure. Agree with you as well. If there are modifications and refurbishments, they should be disclosed because to collectors, there is considerable value in those small details. I will point you all to this article on the recent sale of the most expensive Ferrari in the world but without the original gearbox. Maybe not an exact analogy but a similar situation. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ides-entitled/

[77T]

Originally Posted by springer

What's the issue with having a case refinished or as you refer to it as "recut" which I assume means the same thing?

By itself I wouldn’t mind a nicely refinished midcase on a 1680. Did you have a chance to look at the newly cut chamfers on the one the OP showed?

I believe they were not that wide originally. But I guess that’s the popular style now...


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[mountainjogger]

Fascinating post. A lot of issues, on which there are clearly different opinions.

Hope the buyer and seller can reach a mutually acceptable accommodation/compromise.

Personally, I would not care if the case has been recut, but I would care if the dial had been resumed, particularly at this price point. But then again, I would ask. But then again, I would know to ask.

For me, the takeaway is to make a list of every issue I am concerned with, and ask the seller about the issue in writing via email before the sale.

[Sublovin]

This is seems to be yet another testament to the difficulty in collecting vintage. I’m not taking a side here either way, but doesn’t there need to be a point where a seller can comfortably remove the proceeds of the sale from “escrow” and consider the sale final?
Aside from it turning up that it was stolen, there has to be some onus on the buyer to do their proper due diligence in a reasonable amount of time.
What if this were 6 months after the sale....or 6 years? Where do you reasonably draw the line? Over 30 days is a long time.

[RobW]

Originally Posted by Sublovin

This is seems to be yet another testament to the difficulty in collecting vintage. I’m not taking a side here either way, but doesn’t there need to be a point where a seller can comfortably remove the proceeds of the sale from “escrow” and consider the sale final?
Aside from it turning up that it was stolen, there has to be some onus on the buyer to do their proper due diligence in a reasonable amount of time.
What if this were 6 months after the sale....or 6 years? Where do you reasonably draw the line? Over 30 days is a long time.

I agree. As with anything vintage -- and I have bought and sold vintage cars for many years -- it's always "buyer beware" and performing due diligence. And 30 days are long enough for the seller to consider the sale final. The buyer's complaint about the relume may be valid but it doesn't really matter at this point.

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[brandrea]

Originally Posted by Sublovin

This is seems to be yet another testament to the difficulty in collecting vintage. I’m not taking a side here either way, but doesn’t there need to be a point where a seller can comfortably remove the proceeds of the sale from “escrow” and consider the sale final?
Aside from it turning up that it was stolen, there has to be some onus on the buyer to do their proper due diligence in a reasonable amount of time.
What if this were 6 months after the sale....or 6 years? Where do you reasonably draw the line? Over 30 days is a long time.

That’s kind of where I land on this too.

Im still confused as to whether the seller knew it was a re-lumed dial

In any event, the buyer needs to to his vetting in a reasonable amount of time after receiving the watch.

Many sales ads provide a specific amount of time: eg 72 hours to inspect or money back .... that sort of thing.

[Verdi]

Did the seller do the case refurbishment at Rolliworks?
If the answer is yes.....I would not grant the benefit of the doubt regarding the relume!

Seller failed to mention in his add this very important aspect, imo.

I would ask for a refund if I were you....since you are not happy with a relume and this was not mentioned in the add!

[swish77]

Originally Posted by 1665fan

I’m not sure about that...anybody else have a 71 daytona that glows???

My late '70s (6.0 serial) 6263 with its original tritium on dial and hands reacts and glows briefly afterward when exposed to UV light. My previous 6263 (8 mil. serial) did the same thing.

Originally Posted by Michael M.

Just an FYI. Tritium Daytona dials from inception to final production in 1988 both glowed and reacted to UV.

Correct, and Michael would know.

[southtexas]

Double

[southtexas]

Originally Posted by springer

What's the issue with having a case refinished or as you refer to it as "recut" which I assume means the same thing?

Original seller listed case as MINT. Not even close. I wonder when seller will chime in.


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[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by southtexas

I wonder when the seller will chime in.


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Been wondering the same thing. He assured me he would.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Sublovin

This is seems to be yet another testament to the difficulty in collecting vintage. I’m not taking a side here either way, but doesn’t there need to be a point where a seller can comfortably remove the proceeds of the sale from “escrow” and consider the sale final?
Aside from it turning up that it was stolen, there has to be some onus on the buyer to do their proper due diligence in a reasonable amount of time.
What if this were 6 months after the sale....or 6 years? Where do you reasonably draw the line? Over 30 days is a long time.

You are absolutely correct. I have been weighing two primary elements here. First, the seller didn't specify a period of time (though did guarantee that he would stand by the watch as "100% authentic"). Next, the scope of delivery/payment process caps that time period at 6 months.

So in a technical sense, I have rights to exercise...

My hope remains, though, that the seller and I can figure this out without formal dispute. I patiently await either a public or private discussion on the matter.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by southtexas

Original seller listed case as MINT. Not even close. I wonder when seller will chime in.


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Just to be clear...I have no issues with the case/weld. I can live with that. The dial however is the real problem for me.

[Verdi]

Originally Posted by springer

What's the issue with having a case refinished or as you refer to it as "recut" which I assume means the same thing?

Huh?!
Are you joking?!

It’s a big thing. If I wanna buy a birth watch, all original from that year....... and I find out later that case is refinished and dial relumed, I would not be happy!

Have you sold any watches and you missed to mentioned it is a refinished or dial relume?!

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by Verdi

Huh?!
Are you joking?!

It’s a big thing. If I wanna buy a birth watch, all original from that year....... and I find out later that case is refinished and dial relumed, I would not be happy!

Have you sold any watches and you missed to mentioned it is a refinished or dial relume?!

I feel that the case recut was properly disclosed and have no issues there. It's all about the dial re-lume to me.

[Verdi]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

I feel that the case recut was properly disclosed and have no issues there. It's all about the dial re-lume to me.

When was that disclosed? It was not mentioned in the original posting

[mountainjogger]

Questions OP.

Am I correct that this is the watch you currently have listed for sale?

If so, did you receive the Roli-Works invoice (displayed in your listing) of work done when you purchased it? If so, shouldn't any questions about the redo of the case should be long gone?

As to the dial. Your listing did not disclose the dial issue until members of this forum pointed it out. So, if it has been relumed (there seems to be some disagreement) then it was apparently good enough that two vintage watch sellers missed it before listing it (you and the seller). Am I correct?

You appear to have sold and continue to sell vintage watches. Your listing has a 96 hr return policy. So, what is your policy if a buyer of a vintage watch you sold raises a relume issue that you were not aware of well beyond your 96 hour return policy? Say months down the road, or years? Will you issue a full refund? What is the outer time limit that you as a seller will honor on the watches you have sold?

Just asking. I find this a fascinating topic.

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by mountainjogger

Questions OP.

Am I correct that this is the watch you currently have listed for sale?

If so, did you receive the Roli-Works invoice (displayed in your listing) of work done when you purchased it? If so, shouldn't any questions about the redo of the case should be long gone?

As to the dial. Your listing did not disclose the dial issue until members fo this forum pointed it out. So, if it has been relumed (there seems to be some disagreement) then it was apparently good enough that two vintage watch sellers missed it before listing it (you and the seller). Am I correct?

You appear to have sold and continue to sell vintage watches. Your listing has a 96 hr return policy. So, what is your policy if a buyer of a vintage watch you sold raises a relume issue that you were not aware of well beyond your 96 hour return policy? Say months down the road, or years? Will you issue a full refund? What is the outer time limit that you as a seller will honor on the watches you have sold?

Just asking. I find this a fascinating topic.

Yes, Rolliworks receipt was included and I knew about the case (and accepted it immediately). Because the receipt was included, I accepted that work as being the extent of it. And since the seller did not disclose it, and offered to stand by the watch as "100% authentic," I felt comfortable. And after talking on the phone extensively, and texting extensively, he has struck me as an honest person with whom this conversation can be had. So I am trying.

As for the time question, I would honor my own 96 hour window, for sure. After that, the only return/refund I would entertain would involve any authenticity/originality issues that were clearly present (even in retrospect) at time of sale. The issue of authenticity/originality is something I would view as a threat to both my reputation and my conscience. I would work with the buyer to fix things. And if they couldn't be fixed, I'd refund in full and (over) apologize. I write all of that after having given this all kinds of thought (probably too much).

As for the "outer limit," in normal circumstances I'd be subject to the terms of payment, where I would implicitly have agreed to the return terms by accepting whatever form of payment I had agreed to accept. That's the "technical" answer.

The less technical answer is that there would be no outer limit if the buyer returned with evidence that the adverse issue had existed when I sold it. If I ever sold a watch with authenticity/originality compromises, I would want to know and fix it ASAP. And I would be a bit anxiety-filled until I knew that everyone knew I had done the right thing.

But, again, all of these are good questions and fair points.

Thank you for weighing in!

[Cloudchaser]

Originally Posted by mountainjogger

Questions OP.

Am I correct that this is the watch you currently have listed for sale?

If so, did you receive the Roli-Works invoice (displayed in your listing) of work done when you purchased it? If so, shouldn't any questions about the redo of the case should be long gone?

As to the dial. Your listing did not disclose the dial issue until members of this forum pointed it out. So, if it has been relumed (there seems to be some disagreement) then it was apparently good enough that two vintage watch sellers missed it before listing it (you and the seller). Am I correct?

You appear to have sold and continue to sell vintage watches. Your listing has a 96 hr return policy. So, what is your policy if a buyer of a vintage watch you sold raises a relume issue that you were not aware of well beyond your 96 hour return policy? Say months down the road, or years? Will you issue a full refund? What is the outer time limit that you as a seller will honor on the watches you have sold?

Just asking. I find this a fascinating topic.

Also, it seems that any disagreement regarding the relume has been settled; the watch has definitely been re-lumed. Having thought that issue through thoroughly, I have determined that the quality level of the inauthenticity is moot...it's more about doing the right thing now that it's been clearly identified.

[btinl]

Is this the same watch that was sold directly by Rolliworks?

https://www.instagram.com/p/ByZRq6_H..._web_copy_link

[swish77]

Originally Posted by Cloudchaser

I checked in with the seller earlier today and he said he'd check in on this thread to catch up (he's three hours ahead). His only response thus far is that it shouldn't matter or affect value...

"Shouldn't matter or affect value"???? That's a ridiculous response, and highly inaccurate.

If this were me, I'd seek a full refund.