I HATE WHEN RSC's SWAP PARTS WITHOUT PERMISSION! To me it's a BIG Issue!

[Ckci]

There is a thread I just read today about a guy who sent in his explorer I for some work and the T-Rex hand (short minute hand) was swapped out without his consent. Rolex service people doing this without the owners written consent makes it impossible for me to feel good about sending them any watch of mine. This is especially true when it comes to all original Vintage Rolex watches! Here is my response on that thread. As a TRF family I think we have they ability to get this very dangerous practice changed. I'd like to explore the idea of producing an open letter that members could sign onto and that could be sent to Rolex Inc, the RSC's and to the AD's. As owners of fine Rolex watches we all love we have the right to have them serviced with confidence that we will get them back without key parts of their heritage being removed! I'm sure plenty of people on the site don't care about this as an issue but I'm also sure there are many here who see these as collectable in there original condition and don't want any parts removed without their permission.

Here's a copy of my other post:
" I absolutely HATE when Rolex feels like they can do whatever the H*LL they want with a watch! To me that is FELONY when they start removing and confiscating original parts off of watches. These original parts have lots of value when it comes to older watches. These people at RSC's know this and I'd be shocked it they aren't taking these home and selling them on the black market for a substantial profit. Anyone who is into Vintage knows how drastically that can impact the value of a watch. Service dials etc are complete BS if the change wasn't requested. I will never trust one of my vintage watches to them. If they ask and the person opts in for a swap like this that is one thing but otherwise it makes me despise the RSC's. Anyone who gets into collecting Vintage Rolex watches I'm sure feels the same!"

Does anyone agree?

Sincerely,
Russell

[japenney]

Many vingage pieces go unserviced for this very reason.

[jon_jon]

I have heard about this issue as well. I know it is one of the reasons why many forum members use Rolex certified independent watchmakers to service their older watches.

[josephvman]

Um...no.

This has been policy for decades at RSC's, and if you're servicing a watch that this might be an issue with (vintage, collectible, etc.) you would know this. If you don't want a dial/hands changed at an RSC, it's a simple matter of discussing what they will and won't do before they service your piece. If the piece isn't important enough to you to have a "meeting of the minds" beforehand, then this is where you end up, and it's not their fault, it's yours.

There are plenty of qualified people who will work on your watch with the intention of doing minimally-invasive service or repairs, and all it takes is a simple search right here on TRF. There are literally hundreds of threads on the topic.

[RichM]

I believe the RSC will continue with business as usual and would have no problem telling you to take your business elsewhere. That's just the way they are. At least in the NYC RSC.

Every watch that I've sent through there, I've always been informed of what work would be done before the work begins. I also had to give them my OK. None of these have been vintage. I also believe the RSC is not in the business of restoring vintage watches but rather to make them into like new condition.

If I had a vintage watch that required special attention, I'd go to the private sector.

Keep in mind I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that's how it is.

[Eric Chan]

Originally Posted by josephvman

Um...no.

This has been policy for decades at RSC's, and if you're servicing a watch that this might be an issue with (vintage, collectible, etc.) you would know this. If you don't want a dial/hands changed at an RSC, it's a simple matter of discussing what they will and won't do before they service your piece. If the piece isn't important enough to you to have a "meeting of the minds" beforehand, then this is where you end up, and it's not their fault, it's yours.

There are plenty of qualified people who will work on your watch with the intention of doing minimally-invasive service or repairs, and all it takes is a simple search right here on TRF. There are literally hundreds of threads on the topic.

This just about sums it up.

[subtona]

Originally Posted by josephvman

Um...no.

This has been policy for decades at RSC's, and if you're servicing a watch that this might be an issue with (vintage, collectible, etc.) you would know this. If you don't want a dial/hands changed at an RSC, it's a simple matter of discussing what they will and won't do before they service your piece. If the piece isn't important enough to you to have a "meeting of the minds" beforehand, then this is where you end up, and it's not their fault, it's yours.

There are plenty of qualified people who will work on your watch with the intention of doing minimally-invasive service or repairs, and all it takes is a simple search right here on TRF. There are literally hundreds of threads on the topic.

I do not believe there is anything simple about it, if Rolex doesn't make an effort to detail what work they will do.

If Rolex says your bezel insert is scratched & dented, we recommend replacing it.
But they do not mention that the color may be different and the fat font is no longer available and the matching tritium pip will be replaced with a white luminova pip, how would the customer know what questions to ask and what damage may been done...surely the old watch will look shiny and new upon completion...then sometime later, after your original parts have found their way to the trash, you begin to realize somethings are not quite the same.

Of course the example of a matte dial with oversize plots being swapped without pointing out the impact just in looks (not to mention value) is one of the most heinous crimes RSC commits.

Rounding out beautifully beveled lugs or crown guards and one of the things I find particularly vexing is grinding down the bezel during polishing as if that has any function or use...I could barely grip and turn my bezel after RSCNY got through with it.

My feeling is that when you visit RSC, they should spend a few minutes with each customer to articulate what will be done along with your options. If that is too much work then they can put some pamphlets in the waiting room, it really isn't that hard.

RSCNY strong arm tactics are quite obnoxious and completely without justification. I truly do not see how anyone would attempt to deny the customers best interest by defending RSC bully like practices. Of course I would agree that if there was a concern of sorts with for example a tritium dial flaking then the customer would have to sign off on the warranty and maybe even have to waive it in some circumstance.


On a side note, among other disappointing service visits, I caught RSCNY in a flat out lie charging me for a service that they did not provide (replacement of crown and tube)...1 week later they offered to "replace it again"

On the point of plenty of qualified people, I also very much disagree. I think it is like finding a needle in a hay stack. I recall my trusted auto mechanic telling me he was retiring...my solution was to sell my car.


Rant time out.


Ps Russell.

[Ckci]

Originally Posted by subtona

I do not believe there is anything simple about it, if Rolex doesn't make an effort to detail what work they will do.

If Rolex says your bezel insert is scratched & dented, we recommend replacing it.
But they do not mention that the color may be different and the fat font is no longer available and the matching tritium pip will be replaced with a white luminova pip, how would the customer know what questions to ask and what damage may been done...surely the old watch will look shiny and new upon completion...then sometime later, after your original parts have found their way to the trash, you begin to realize somethings are not quite the same.

Of course the example of a matte dial with oversize plots being swapped without pointing out the impact just in looks (not to mention value) is one of the most heinous crimes RSC commits.

Rounding out beautifully beveled lugs or crown guards and one of the things I find particularly vexing is grinding down the bezel during polishing as if that has any function or use...I could barely grip and turn my bezel after RSCNY got through with it.

My feeling is that when you visit RSC, they should spend a few minutes with each customer to articulate what will be done along with your options. If that is too much work then they can put some pamphlets in the waiting room, it really isn't that hard.

RSCNY strong arm tactics are quite obnoxious and completely without justification. I truly do not see how anyone would attempt to deny the customers best interest by defending RSC bully like practices. Of course I would agree that if there was a concern of sorts with for example a tritium dial flaking then the customer would have to sign off on the warranty and maybe even have to waive it in some circumstance.


On a side note, among other disappointing service visits, I caught RSCNY in a flat out lie charging me for a service that they did not provide (replacement of crown and tube)...1 week later they offered to "replace it again"

Rant time out.


Ps Russell.

Gus,

You are truly a stud! You experience is first hand and is the real deal and is no way to treat a valuable repeat customer such as yourself or customer for that matter.

to you my friend!
Russell

To have a form to protect our watches from being adulterated is completely reasonable. I picture the form with the appropriate check boxes marked and signed by the customer electronically or otherwise and being given to the customer as part of his receipt that shows one of the RSC's is servicing his watch.

[Thegr8one]

When I serviced my 1977 1680 with RSC Toronto, I simply spoke with them on the phone and wrote on the form what I wanted them to do, but more importantly, what I didn't want them to do and they followed the instructions to the letter. I agree with Josephvman, it just needs to be communicated clearly and they should be good. Or atleast tell you otherwise so you can make a decision.

[kromdom]

Originally Posted by Thegr8one

When I serviced my 1977 1680 with RSC Toronto, I simply spoke with them on the phone and wrote on the form what I wanted them to do, but more importantly, what I didn't want them to do and they followed the instructions to the letter. I agree with Josephvman, it just needs to be communicated clearly and they should be good. Or atleast tell you otherwise so you can make a decision.

BOOM too easy and makes so much sense.

[beer]

agree i saw someone send a patinad watch in and the hands and lume were all replaced, i know the intentions were good but it destroyed the value of the vintage piece

[Memphis]

you know what i hate... grown men using capital letters. it's the same as yelling and you wouldn't do it in a face to face conversation.

and worse... you're doing it off of "hear-say". you've clearly never dealt personally with this scenario.

[Ckci]

Originally Posted by Memphis

you know what i hate... grown men using capital letters. it's the same as yelling and you wouldn't do it in a face to face conversation.

and worse... you're doing it off of "hear-say". you've clearly never dealt personally with this scenario.

If you don't think I'd do that in person YOU DON'T KNOW ME! If they switched out valuable parts on my vintage watch I most certainly would be using the equivalent of BOLD CAPS! I'd be PISSED! They know very well that these parts are what make these watches and if they were their personal watches they would feel the same way. I did the caps to emphasize inflection and to indicate I take this issue seriously and it's one I'm passionate about. They can always say they lost the do not switch parts instructions. My point is that they should have a policy of not swapping parts other than within the movement without first discussing it with the owner of the watch. It's not their watch regardless of how cavalier they may behave! If you had vintage pieces I'm pretty sure you'd feel the same way. If not you can give me your vintage hands, crowns, bezels, dials and crystals.

[Sublover2166]

Originally Posted by Ckci

If you don't think I'd do that in person YOU DON'T KNOW ME! If they switched out valuable parts on my vintage watch I most certainly would be using the equivalent of BOLD CAPS! I'd be PISSED! They know very well that these parts are what make these watches and if they were their personal watches they would feel the same way. I did the caps to emphasize inflection and to indicate I take this issue seriously and it's one I'm passionate about. They can always say they lost the do not switch parts instructions. My point is that they should have a policy of not swapping parts other than within the movement without first discussing it with the owner of the watch. It's not their watch regardless of how cavalier they may behave! If you had vintage pieces I'm pretty sure you'd feel the same way. If not you can give me your vintage hands, crowns, bezels, dials and crystals.

This is why most of the guys here with vintage pieces only deal with independent CW21s with Rolex parts accounts like Rik Dietel, Bob Ridley and others. What you don't seem to understand is the RSC is not the only kid on the block. Indy watchmakers usually do higher quality work and they will abide by your wishes as far as not replacing vintage parts.

[Ckci]

Originally Posted by Sublover2166

This is why most of the guys here with vintage pieces only deal with independent CW21s with Rolex parts accounts like Rik Dietel, Bob Ridley and others. What you don't seem to understand is the RSC is not the only kid on the block. Indy watchmakers usually do higher quality work and they will abide by your wishes as far as not replacing vintage parts.

You are right about needing to have these pieces worked on by people who specialize in vintage watches. I appreciate everyone's input. Even with non vintage pieces I don't believe they should be putting service dials on or making any other cosmetic changes without the permission of the owner of the watch. It seems to happen way to often. I and other Rolex owners should be able to safely get our watches serviced by a RSC. It would not be hard for a $B company to ask and have a box to check about whether cosmetic parts can be switched or not without the owners permission and whether or not the parts are to be returned and then to email the form back to the owner for confirmation. Rolex is clearly in a luxury market and a customer service industry in terms of RSC's they should be delivering premium service for a premium product and should not use their size as a license to act arrogantly.

[Rolex addict]

You not only need to communicate it clearly, but put it in writing.

[FTX I]

Great thread Russell.

[ppbskis]

This happened to me back in the day before the internet and Forums. My 1988 11600 was sent in to Rolex for service in say 1992 or 1993.
The original dial with the large Tritium lume was replaced with the newfangled white gold surround indicators, boy was I happy!
Fast forward to 2012 or so when I joined this forum and the sickness in my stomach manifested itself. From what I have learned in this community my original face is worth more than my watch currently is.
I hate being reminded but I guess the more we let people know, the more original pieces may survive.
So from now on don't " Keep it real", keep it "original"!

[77T]

Originally Posted by ppbskis

This happened to me back in the day before the internet and Forums. My 1988 11600 was sent in to Rolex for service in say 1992 or 1993.
The original dial with the large Tritium lume was replaced with the newfangled white gold surround indicators, boy was I happy!
Fast forward to 2012 or so when I joined this forum and the sickness in my stomach manifested itself. From what I have learned in this community my original face is worth more than my watch currently is.
I hate being reminded but I guess the more we let people know, the more original pieces may survive.
So from now on don't " Keep it real", keep it "original"!

They did that free? Otherwise wouldn't you have been asked to authorize the charges?

[Boaters]

Good idea put it in writing then there is no miscommunication

[Qinhan]

For me, I've heard too many horror stories about RSC doing exactly this that I've never used them and have no plan on doing so in future. Having found a passionate and diligent independent, I'm happy to use his services and feel comfortable that he's not going to be doing anything that I don't want to one of my precious watches.

[ppbskis]

In 1992 there were no cell phones etc. so most likely it went in for service and Rolex deemed my current dial was not worthy and replaced it. Most likely I would have cheerfully said wow, you can make it look just like todays model. Think if you had a car go to the dealer for service and they offered to freshen up and modernize it free or at little cost, most would say yes and regret later, isn't there an inferior Panerai movement in a piece that Panerai later replaced for offended customers? From what I know those inferior movements are now prized pieces.
Hindsight is 20/20

[Verdi]

Rolex should have a standard option of doing a service without any replacement of parts other than on the movement.

[ref1655]

Originally Posted by Verdi

Rolex should have a standard option of doing a service without any replacement of parts other than on the movement.

+1...a standard servicing for current models (with parts replacement at their discretion) & a vintage servicing whereby nothing cosmetic is changed/altered without previous consent from the owner.

[sco]

I get the frustration, but I would like the option to "upgrade" while it is in for a service as well.

[kilyung]

I understand the frustration but, in the absence of clear and detailed instructions, RSC reserves the right to restore the watch to proper operating specifications using parts available to them. If we don't want something done then it's incumbent on us to communicate that. Of course misunderstandings and human error will always happen. This is why I recommend independents for vintage or important time pieces. I'd only send in a watch to RSC that I wouldn't mind seeing brought back to original condition.

[Anthon]

Originally Posted by kilyung

I understand the frustration but, in the absence of clear and detailed instructions, RSC reserves the right to restore the watch to proper operating specifications using parts available to them. If we don't want something done then it's incumbent on us to communicate that. Of course misunderstandings and human error will always happen. This is why I recommend independents for vintage or important time pieces. I'd only send in a watch to RSC that I wouldn't mind seeing brought back to original condition.

What right do they have? The watch is mine and mine alone. I'm not wearing it under license. If they want to swap out perfectly functioning parts for 'the latest model', they better ask first.

The new hands on an older Explorer change the appearance of the watch dramatically. All the more reason to specifically ask for permission before changing these parts.

[AK797]

Originally Posted by Anthon

What right do they have? The watch is mine and mine alone. I'm not wearing it under license. If they want to swap out perfectly functioning parts for 'the latest model', they better ask first.

The new hands on an older Explorer change the appearance of the watch dramatically. All the more reason to specifically ask for permission before changing these parts.

They have the right that practically all monopolies have. If you want a dial swap and they agree you pay for the new dial and they will almost certainly keep your old dial. Ain't just Rolex, big business/money rules the world as has become increasingly clear to all since the credit crunch, don't know why we really bother with pantomime politicians any more other than for entertainment.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by kilyung

I understand the frustration but, in the absence of clear and detailed instructions, RSC reserves the right to restore the watch to proper operating specifications using parts available to them. If we don't want something done then it's incumbent on us to communicate that. Of course misunderstandings and human error will always happen. This is why I recommend independents for vintage or important time pieces. I'd only send in a watch to RSC that I wouldn't mind seeing brought back to original condition.

Well said

There are plenty of reputable independents here on the forum that will service to exact specifications, and they also are experienced to know what should and shouldn't be done.

[Spartacus]

Originally Posted by kilyung

I understand the frustration but, in the absence of clear and detailed instructions, RSC reserves the right to restore the watch to proper operating specifications using parts available to them. If we don't want something done then it's incumbent on us to communicate that. Of course misunderstandings and human error will always happen. This is why I recommend independents for vintage or important time pieces. I'd only send in a watch to RSC that I wouldn't mind seeing brought back to original condition.

Agreed. This thread is hard to understand, RSC strives to restore to like NEW condition, yet people are up in arms over replacing old parts...confusing!

I also think this patina craze is full-on madness. People paying more for wear and tear than for like new....

8k for a blnr and 7500 for an old gmt damaged, not keeping time and a bracelet that looks like a slinky. "It will be worth millions one day".