Grand Seiko vs Rolex Explorer I (39mm)

[ecsub44]

Originally Posted by diver2012

Dull and boring?

Nissan and Lexus?

I thought it was Toyota and Lexus...

[diver2012]

Originally Posted by ecsub44

Nissan and Lexus?

I thought it was Toyota and Lexus...

My point is both Nissan and Lexus are brands that don't have the prestige image yet produce 2 of the best supercars on the market.

[ecsub44]

Originally Posted by diver2012

My point is both Nissan and Lexus are brands that don't have the prestige image yet produce 2 of the best supercars on the market.

[Daytona-Dan]

Originally Posted by ecsub44

It's like saying, "I don't know anything about Lexus...but I know I don't like it." What?

Actually, I'm with John on this one too, sorry. I don't care how fancy the said Lexus is, I would pick the equivalent BMW any day and would not even LOOK a the Lexus, mainly because of the name. Having said that, to me the gap between the Seiko name and the Rolex name is a lot wider.

My main point and case is my confusion at the success of the Audi R8, why anyone would spend that much money on an Audi when they can get an Aston Martin is beyond me. Again, I'm sure it's an amazing car but I would choose the Aston martin without any hesitation.

[ecsub44]

Originally Posted by Daytona-Dan

Actually, I'm with John on this one too, sorry. I don't care how fancy the said Lexus is, I would pick the equivalent BMW any day and would not even LOOK a the Lexus, mainly because of the name. Having said that, to me the gap between the Seiko name and the Rolex name is a lot wider.

My main point and case is my confusion at the success of the Audi R8, why anyone would spend that much money on an Audi when they can get an Aston Martin is beyond me. Again, I'm sure it's an amazing car but I would choose the Aston martin without any hesitation.

My only point here is to suggest you do some research into the GS brand.

At the end of the day, I still subjectively prefer Rolex.

You said yourself that your misinformed. Get informed and see if your opinion changes.

If you only care about the name (which I think you've driven that point home), then I guess any open-minded research would be pointless.

Kudos to Rolex marketing for getting to a point where folks will buy their product without considering price, quality, or competition. Amazing!

[diver2012]

Originally Posted by Daytona-Dan

My main point and case is my confusion at the success of the Audi R8, why anyone would spend that much money on an Audi when they can get an Aston Martin is beyond me. Again, I'm sure it's an amazing car but I would choose the Aston martin without any hesitation.

...because the AMV8 isn't that good a car.

It feels dated...isn't that fast...and doesn't handle as well compared to an R8.

For the same reason I can't understand why someone would have a V8 R8 over a GTR as the GTR is streets ahead.

[landroverking]

Great lively thread. Thanks and hats off to both sides.
I must say GS is likely better than Rolex. For those of us who buy a watch to please only yourself the debate is over. Those who buy a Rolex or any other brand to get noticed won't ever embrace GS. GS is to Rolex what a "Z" is to a Vette. Having had both the Vette gets more notice and the Z is better.

[Daytona-Dan]

Originally Posted by diver2012

...because the AMV8 isn't that good a car.

It feels dated...isn't that fast...and doesn't handle as well compared to an R8.

For the same reason I can't understand why someone would have a V8 R8 over a GTR as the GTR is streets ahead.

The GTR is a nice car but I wouldn't want the boy racer look that accompanies it (I'm ready to take the flames for that ).

Thankfully, not everyone chooses a car based on numbers alone. I don't care which is faster, on UK roads is a moot point anyway and ALL of the above will be more than suitable. You choose what brings a smile to your face and for me, it was the Mercedes SL. If more cars of this calibre offered a hard top, I might start looking elsewhere.

I didn't buy it to thrash around and show off how fast I can go. I bought it because nothing beats the feeling of an open top convertible that has the comfort and performance of a closed coupe in the fast lane... oh, and it's a Mercedes

Mind you... a convertible with UK weather is probably also a moot point

[diver2012]

Originally Posted by Daytona-Dan

I bought it because nothing beats the feeling of an open top convertible that has the comfort and performance of a coupe in the fast lane.

As long as you move over when I come past in my GTR I don't mind.

[Daytona-Dan]

Originally Posted by diver2012

As long as you move over when I come past in my GTR I don't mind.

Will do!

[improviz]

Originally Posted by MrLee

My problems with the watch in question are less about the name on the dial, and more to do with the looks, heritage of the model and the quartz features when compared to the explorer. The explorer is an iconic beutiful mechanical watch, the GS is for me not as good looking, lacks the history and heritage and has quartz features, so for me the explorer is the one I would choose. Hence the fact you will never hear me spout anything about resale values etc, its irrelevant

You seem to be totally, blissfully unaware that not all GS models are Spring Drive models. I would reccommend that you go to their site and review the GS line for a few minutes, educate yourself, and understand that most Grand Seikos are *not* Spring Drive movements, but are, in fact very well done pure mechanicals.

[MrLee]

Originally Posted by powerfunk

You're really hammering home the Seiko = quartz thing. You realize that Grand Seikos aren't all Spring Drive, right? The SBGA001 is Spring Drive, but many are 10bps automatics. Seiko existed almost 90 years before making its first quartz watch; viewing Seiko's history as "the quartz guys" is a bit arbitrary.

Yep fully aware of that, but this thread is about comparing a spring drive to an explorer so that's what I'm comparing

Although quartz is the defining technology in seikos history which is nothing to be ashamed of, it's just not particularly what I want in a prestige watch, but there are exceptions to this rule obviously, the omega chrono quartz/albatross/Montreal springs to mind

[Chainring]

Originally Posted by Daytona-Dan

Actually, I'm with John on this one too, sorry. I don't care how fancy the said Lexus is, I would pick the equivalent BMW any day and would not even LOOK a the Lexus, mainly because of the name. Having said that, to me the gap between the Seiko name and the Rolex name is a lot wider.

My main point and case is my confusion at the success of the Audi R8, why anyone would spend that much money on an Audi when they can get an Aston Martin is beyond me. Again, I'm sure it's an amazing car but I would choose the Aston martin without any hesitation.

Dan, I don't know you personally and I'm not attacking you. But based on your posts, you've painted yourself as someone who values brand recognition above all else. I guess we're all guilty of that to some extent as we are all on this forum. Rolex is probably the world's master of branding and marketing. I wonder how we'd all feel about Rolex if they provided the same product they do now, but without ever having had a marketing department? Their watches would cost a fourth of what they do now and even less in the second hand market.

As I stated in an earlier post, I'd own a GS if my list of Swiss and German watches I want wasn't so long. That list includes a few more Rolex but many more non-Rolex. One brand that isn't on my list but I'm watching is Federique Constant. I'm extremely impressed by what they are doing and at the price point they offer. Only time will tell if their marketing and acceptance in the watch world will create a lasting value for the brand. Oops. Sorry for the thread hijack. EXPLORER!! Now we're back on track. And happy father's day everyone.

[improviz]

Originally Posted by MrLee

Yep fully aware of that, but this thread is about comparing a spring drive to an explorer so that's what I'm comparing

No, not true: you have made several statements to the effect that the Grand Seiko line is a quartz-driven mechanical movement and if you'd like I can produce the quotes.

[MrLee]

Originally Posted by improviz

You seem to be totally, blissfully unaware that not all GS models are Spring Drive models. I would reccommend that you go to their site and review the GS line for a few minutes, educate yourself, and understand that most Grand Seikos are *not* Spring Drive movements, but are, in fact very well done pure mechanicals.

No need because I am fully aware of this, are you aware we are comparing two specific models in this thread or have you lost track?

[MrLee]

Originally Posted by improviz

No, not true: you have made several statements to the effect that the Grand Seiko line is a quartz-deiven movement and if you'd like I can produce the quotes.

Yes the GS we are comparing in this thread!! Produce the quotes!

[improviz]

Originally Posted by MrLee

Yes the GS we are comparing in this thread!! Produce the quotes!

Will do.

[MrLee]

Originally Posted by improviz

Will do.

Good look forward to it, I'm out at the moment so will back to answer you later so don't try and post to the affect that I'm nowhere to be seen, I'm out with the missus and will be for a few hours

[bscepter]

if you care what others think: get the rolex
if you want a better watch: get the GS

don't get me wrong; they're both great watches. the GS is just better from a purely horological point of view. but then if you want a watch that will really "take a licking," i'd probably go for the explorer.

[Daytona-Dan]

Originally Posted by Chainring

Dan, I don't know you personally and I'm not attacking you. But based on your posts, you've painted yourself as someone who values brand recognition above all else.

I'm fully aware of how it looks and I'm ok with it. I'm not saying Rolex is the ONLY brand I would choose, and I'm not saying I would never buy a Seiko. I'm saying I would never pay Rolex prices for a Seiko. I think my cap would be £250 Maximum and I have similar caps for most brands. Like I said, if this makes me a shallow person, I'm ok with it.

[improviz]

Originally Posted by MrLee

Good look forward to it, I'm out at the moment so will back to answer you later so don't try and post to the affect that I'm nowhere to be seen, I'm out with the missus and will be for a few hours

Let's start here:

Originally Posted by MrLee

I've always had 'respect' for GS from a hybrid movement point of view, but not from a design point of view or as a mechanical peice of horology. The same way I had respect for the seiko kenetic in the nineties. I just wouldn't want a GS for the reasons I have already outlined. So given the option of an explorer or the GS in question I would choose the explorer, nothing's changed

GS is a line, not a model. You state right there that you've had "respect for GS from a hybrid movement point of view", but again the fact is that GS, Grand Seiko, is a line, not a particular model, and they are not in any way, shape, or form, all hybrids. "A GS" is like saying "A Rolex", it denotes the entire line, far different from saying "A SBGA001" or "An Explorer"

Here you state that **any** GS's heritage is quartz, which implies that all have quartz movements (false), which are derived from earlier quartz movements (also false):

Originally Posted by MrLee

But it's no surprise because any GS's heritage is quartz, it's seikos thing

Further, in this post you implied that Seiko was guilty of false advertising by producing hybrid movements and passing them off as mechanical, when in fact a) they produce and have produced purely mechanical movements for a good many years, and b) they hide nothing, there is a separate site they run which fully explains the design and operation of the Spring Drive.

Originally Posted by MrLee

What's 'shake your head sad' about just pointing out something people may not be aware of. It's not a purely mechanical movement. When the Swiss watch houses make a mechanical watch it is 100% mechanical unless stated otherwise, there no blurring of the lines, which in my opinion is kinda cheating a little

As pointed out by Padi, Seiko makes excellent pure mechanical movements, good enough to have beaten the Swiss for several years until the Swiss lobbied to make the competition Swiss-only.

And again, here:

Originally Posted by MrLee

The other thing that's quite funny is how GS use quartz in their 'mechanical' watches, and people go on about their horological excellence

Perhaps that would be due to their fine mechanical watches, which as Padi pointed out to you cleaned up the floor with the Swiss stuff until the Swiss lobbied to have them removed from the competition?

Want more? Fine. You explicitly stated at several points over the course of the thread that Seiko's heritage is cheap quartz watches:

Originally Posted by MrLee

Lol, the thing is soul isn't about the way something is manufactured, it's about it's design, it's history, it's heritage, and I'm sorry but the GS history and heritage is a brand synonymous with nearly wrecking the Swiss watch industry (whose brands, designs and history I think we all love) with cheap quartz watches. So yes GS have absolutely no soul

False. Btw, in addition to looking up Seiko's history you might also want to research the term "Oysterquartz".

Originally Posted by MrLee

Explorer, just don't like the GS looks, and they fly under the radar to much for a watch that you have spent thousands on, no history or heritage of any note either other than a brand synonymous with cheap quartz watches

False, per Padi's post.

[Billywiz]

Originally Posted by Daytona-Dan

I'm fully aware of how it looks and I'm ok with it. I'm not saying Rolex is the ONLY brand I would choose, and I'm not saying I would never buy a Seiko. I'm saying I would never pay Rolex prices for a Seiko. I think my cap would be £250 Maximum and I have similar caps for most brands. Like I said, if this makes me a shallow person, I'm ok with it.

Im going to stick up for Dan...watches are things we love...things that go way beyond telling the time...they stir our emotions and make us feel like we have accomplished something...If Dans love of Rolex makes him feel great and he shares with us why...I respect him for that...no in fact I agree with him...I'm very proud of my watches because they are a...ROLEX. I could not ever imagine feeling that way about a Seiko no matter how good it was it simply has no for character for me...thats it

[CKL1213]

I think Seiko should not use the name "Grand Seiko" when they decided to produce a premium segment because the mother brand name "Seiko" still stick to it.

Toyota is smart enough to totally come out with a new name "Lexus" instead of coming out as "Grand Toyota"

I gotta say it works, people are accepting Lexus even thought they knew it was a premium Toyota.

The same goes to: Nissan to Infinity, Honda to Acura

If Seiko want to position their "Grand Seiko" segment to compete with the Swiss big boys, they gotta do it right in the first place.

A brand name is very important and too bad they (Seiko) are building their business thru low end watches and slowly make their way up. People will remember that and associate that with their brand name.

What if Patek announced that they will have a new USD 200 model coming out and still selling their Grand Complication series. What will people perceive against Patek?

All those luxury brand they set their foundation right, never sell cheap in the first place, maintain and build from there not the other way around.

Imagine Ford announced that they are coming with a "Grand Ford" series to compete against Porsche?

People will debate and take times to accept "Grand Ford" even if "Grand Ford" is really better than a Porsche.

Just like the case with Grand Seiko vs other Swiss big boys now, I know you are good but it takes time.

[ecsub44]

Originally Posted by CKL1213

I think Seiko should not use the name "Grand Seiko" when they decided to produce a premium segment because the mother brand name "Seiko" still stick to it.

Toyota is smart enough to totally come out with a new name "Lexus" instead of coming out as "Grand Toyota"

I gotta say it works, people are accepting Lexus even thought they knew it was a premium Toyota.

The same goes to: Nissan to Infinity, Honda to Acura

If Seiko want to position their "Grand Seiko" segment to compete with the Swiss big boys, they gotta do it right in the first place.

A brand name is very important and too bad they (Seiko) are building their business thru low end watches and slowly make their way up. People will remember that and associate that with their brand name.

What if Patek announced that they will have a new USD 200 model coming out and still selling their Grand Complication series. What will people perceive against Patek?

All those luxury brand they set their foundation right, never sell cheap in the first place, maintain and build from there not the other way around.

Imagine Ford announced that they are coming with a "Grand Ford" series to compete against Porsche?

People will debate and take times to accept "Grand Ford" even if "Grand Ford" is really better than a Porsche.

Just like the case with Grand Seiko vs other Swiss big boys now, I know you are good but it takes time.

Grand Seiko has been around for 53 years.

[Chainring]

Originally Posted by CKL1213

I think Seiko should not use the name "Grand Seiko" when they decided to produce a premium segment because the mother brand name "Seiko" still stick to it.

Toyota is smart enough to totally come out with a new name "Lexus" instead of coming out as "Grand Toyota"

I gotta say it works, people are accepting Lexus even thought they knew it was a premium Toyota.

The same goes to: Nissan to Infinity, Honda to Acura

If Seiko want to position their "Grand Seiko" segment to compete with the Swiss big boys, they gotta do it right in the first place.

A brand name is very important and too bad they (Seiko) are building their business thru low end watches and slowly make their way up. People will remember that and associate that with their brand name.

What if Patek announced that they will have a new USD 200 model coming out and still selling their Grand Complication series. What will people perceive against Patek?

All those luxury brand they set their foundation right, never sell cheap in the first place, maintain and build from there not the other way around.

Imagine Ford announced that they are coming with a "Grand Ford" series to compete against Porsche?

People will debate and take times to accept "Grand Ford" even if "Grand Ford" is really better than a Porsche.

Just like the case with Grand Seiko vs other Swiss big boys now, I know you are good but it takes time.

Extremely good point. Just like Hans Wilsdorf did when he created a second company to give the public Rolex quality at a lower price, Seiko should have created a second company to give the public their luxury offerings. I think they missed a great opportunity there. However, let's not forget that Seiko is widely respected name in Asia and perhaps the company never intended to compete against the Swiss head-to-head in their dominant markets.

[CKL1213]

After 53 years, they are still not there, because if they succeed building their brand image, we won't be discussing here.

[Daytona-Dan]

Originally Posted by Billywiz

I could not ever imagine feeling that way about a Seiko no matter how good it was it simply has no for character for me.

Thanks John, you summed it up perfectly in one sentence!

Originally Posted by CKL1213

I think Seiko should not use the name "Grand Seiko" when they decided to produce a premium segment because the mother brand name "Seiko" still stick to it.

Toyota is smart enough to totally come out with a new name "Lexus" instead of coming out as "Grand Toyota"

I gotta say it works, people are accepting Lexus even thought they knew it was a premium Toyota.

The same goes to: Nissan to Infinity, Honda to Acura

If Seiko want to position their "Grand Seiko" segment to compete with the Swiss big boys, they gotta do it right in the first place.

A brand name is very important and too bad they (Seiko) are building their business thru low end watches and slowly make their way up. People will remember that and associate that with their brand name.

You've hit the nail right on the head. If they had made a fresh name without any relation to Seiko and developed a new brand from that name (like Toyota did with Lexis) they may well be doing better than they are now. Instead they tried to piggy back on the Seiko name for their prestige collection which may well have got them recognised faster, but now all it's doing is holding them back.

I have no problem at all with the Omega brand/pricing even though I know they are owned by swatch. Would I buy a swatch for several thousand? No, but I would buy an Omega. I know it's not quite the same thing because Omega were established as a brand to start with but hopefully people can see where the problem lies.

[ecsub44]

Originally Posted by CKL1213

After 53 years, they are still not there, because if they succeed building their brand image, we won't be discussing here.

If they've been around for 53 years, I'd guess they're doing well and are quite profitable.

[ecsub44]

Originally Posted by Daytona-Dan

...but now all it's doing is holding them back.

Says who?

[CKL1213]

Originally Posted by Chainring

Seiko is widely respected name in Asia and perhaps the company never intended to compete against the Swiss head-to-head in their dominant markets.

Seiko in Asia is like a Toyota (affordable & reliable) nothing more.

Grand Seiko has little presence at the moment.

Seiko is already making good money from their "pedestrian line"