Which Independents Are You Watching?

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by llngoc

I am bordering on homelessness but I have my watches.

All good

Have been homeless, actually. Good times, bad times, and lots of freedom too. It begs the question, do you own stuff or does it own you?

...and i'll stand by my love for carnie food, BK bacon double cheeseburger, Arby's, and Krispy Kreme donuts. Super yummy

Oh, and bacon. We simply must include bacon.

---

Back OT, independents like MB&F, Czapek, etc have a clear vision of their future. MB&F will even provide parts specs so any quality watchmaker can produce replacement parts. George Daniels has brought forth RW Smith. One of the great things about mechanical timepieces, that even 100-year-old clocks can be serviced / restored. NAWCC articles show this often, with wonderful details to help others. Am sure some here are NAWCC members and enjoy reading their publications. Very enlightening and educational

We should be griping about the price of paintings, they're just canvas and some paint.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by llngoc

I start to get this uneasy feelings too. There are a lot of new and young independents who are coming out with watches of similar price point. (Very high) And it seems like a lot of their common theme is low production, very high grade hand finish but most are lacking innovation in complication or chronometry.

I lived through the 2000 Internet bubble when every company with the name .com fetches sky high valuation and this...

Can't speak for others but you are comparing buying artisanal watches vs equity investing. I don't buy the likes of the Origine, 1967, IMR, Vingt-8, etc, for investment purpose. These watches are so illiquid and their market values virtually unknown it doesn't make much sense as an investment. I buy them due to their artisanal aspects - hand-beveling, engine turning, decoration of movement and black polishing. These hand-works are extremely time-consuming and that probably explains their pricing (labor cost in Switzerland is high). During my recent visit to a few Swiss-based watchmakers, I saw almost all of them in the midst of filing the components at the edges.

Re complications, Akrivia, Vincent Deprez and Theo Auffret started with tourbillons; Krayon with the Everywhere; PB released a mono-pusher split-second chronograph as a 2nd model; Gronefeld, Sylvain Pinaud and a few others already have their chronograph. This group has time on their side and I look forward to them expanding their collection.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Can't speak for others but you are comparing buying artisanal watches vs equity investing. I don't buy the likes of the Origine, 1967, IMR, Vingt-8, etc, for investment purpose. These watches are so illiquid and their market values virtually unknown it doesn't make much sense as an investment. I buy them due to their artisanal aspects - hand-beveling, engine turning, decoration of movement and black polishing. These hand-works are extremely time-consuming and that probably explains their pricing (labor cost in Switzerland is high). During my recent visit to a few Swiss-based watchmakers, I saw almost all of them in the midst of filing the components.

Re complications, Akrivia and Vincent Deprez started with tourbillons; Krayon with the Everywhere; PB released a SS as a 2nd model; Gronefeld, Sylvain Pinaud and a few others with chronograph. This group has time on their side and I look forward to them expanding their collection.

I am actually using the Internet bubble as an analogy not as an investment. When the craze is on, you start to see a lot of “start-up”s getting high valuation.

What I feel that most new comers (not all) seem to be having very similar approach to their debut piece.

[ACG]

My favorites are Ferrier and Dofour.

[charger_vital]

Originally Posted by ACG

My favorites are Ferrier and Dofour.

Great choices. Top of their game.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by llngoc

I am actually using the Internet bubble as an analogy not as an investment. When the craze is on, you start to see a lot of “start-up”s getting high valuation.

What I feel that most new comers (not all) seem to be having very similar approach to their debut piece.

FPJ has more children than Elon

[Ichiran]

AdC25

https://www.atelierdechronometrie.com/adc25-3/

"A new version of the AdC88 with a blue galvanic gilt dial and applied Arabic numerals with a handmade case in 18k grey gold of 37.5mm."

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by llngoc

I am actually using the Internet bubble as an analogy not as an investment. When the craze is on, you start to see a lot of “start-up”s getting high valuation.

What I feel that most new comers (not all) seem to be having very similar approach to their debut piece.

There are also independents offering highly hand-finished watches at very affordable prices. See threads by @unknown. Felipe Pikullik also has a few offerings below 10k. No one is forced to pay SF 65k for an artisanal watch if you don't want to.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

AdC25

https://www.atelierdechronometrie.com/adc25-3/

"A new version of the AdC88 with a blue galvanic gilt dial and applied Arabic numerals with a handmade case in 18k grey gold of 37.5mm."

This is one of the interesting one. A friend handled one last month and have many good things to say about it.

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

There are also independents offering highly hand-finished watches at very affordable prices. See threads by @unknown. Felipe Pikullik also has a few offerings below 10k. No one is forced to pay SF 65k for an artisanal watch if you don't want to.

Thanks to @unknown, I also ordered a Reima Koivukoski. The cost of the entire watch in tantalum is less than the upgrade cost from platinum to tantalum for a Voutilainen. The pictures I received so far for the movement finish was amazing even though it was based on an Omega ebache.

Cudos to @unknown for a good find

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

There are also independents offering highly hand-finished watches at very affordable prices. See threads by @unknown. Felipe Pikullik also has a few offerings below 10k. No one is forced to pay SF 65k for an artisanal watch if you don't want to.

I may have posted this before. But this Koivukoski work is definitely good value.

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

There are also independents offering highly hand-finished watches at very affordable prices. See threads by @unknown. Felipe Pikullik also has a few offerings below 10k. No one is forced to pay SF 65k for an artisanal watch if you don't want to.

I dont think he has anything below $10k now. I had a watch built by him that was great for the $ and I don't blame him for increasing prices. Was insane value!

[Ichiran]

Some of these young watchmakers rely on upstream suppliers and when these suppliers increase price, the watchmakers also have to. I understand Comblémine can charge beyond SF 10k for a dial, depending on the level of finishing required.

[Ichiran]

Originally Posted by llngoc

I may have posted this before. But this Koivukoski work is definitely good value.

Dufour-ish

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

Dufour-ish

Not sure if we can say that but for the price with a tantalum case and an enamel dial, I believe it is definitely very good value.

Here is a rendering of the dial in enamel. I have not received the pictures of the real part yet.

[yoast]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

AdC25

https://www.atelierdechronometrie.com/adc25-3/

"A new version of the AdC88 with a blue galvanic gilt dial and applied Arabic numerals with a handmade case in 18k grey gold of 37.5mm."

I thought that looked familiar

[enjoythemusic]

Originally Posted by Ichiran

There are also independents offering highly hand-finished watches at very affordable prices. See threads by @unknown. Felipe Pikullik also has a few offerings below 10k. No one is forced to pay SF 65k for an artisanal watch if you don't want to.

^^^+1

i'll humbly add Torsti Laine. For well under $15k YOU can customize the dial decoration AND color(s) to YOUR liking, YOU can choose the hands, YOU can choose the dial numerals, YOU can choose the moment decoration....

And yes, the dial is handmade using a rose machine, it IS NOT stamped.

Imho you owe it to yourself to see his Instagram page, as there are A LOT of options...

https://www.instagram.com/laine_watches/

[usmc_k9_vet]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

^^^+1

i'll humbly add Torsti Laine. For well under $15k YOU can customize the dial decoration AND color(s) to YOUR liking, YOU can choose the hands, YOU can choose the dial numerals, YOU can choose the moment decoration....

And yes, the dial is handmade using a rose machine, it IS NOT stamped.

Imho you owe it to yourself to see his Instagram page, as there are A LOT of options...

https://www.instagram.com/laine_watches/



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Good call. I’ve always thought Torsti Laine was insanely good value and offered a ton of customization. Very cool stuff.


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[enjoythemusic]

Thx, the Laine has CrAzY awesome personality in various lighting situations, soooo much personality. Ony problem is, the timepiece shown is my wife because she 'snookered me' into not getting mine because she saw what i was up to and..... you know.

Happy Wife
Happy Life

One day will have Torsti Laine make one for me :)

[llngoc]

Originally Posted by usmc_k9_vet

Good call. I’ve always thought Torsti Laine was insanely good value and offered a ton of customization. Very cool stuff.


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The only downside with Laine is the wait time now. Probably too many people discussed it and now it is very popular.

[enjoythemusic]

Oh... hmmmmm. Ummm.... please accept my apologies. Color me guilty of mentioning Laine. In fact, i tried a TRF group buy when it was about a nine-month wait. Am sure it must be over a year now. Ah well, still worth the wait imho.

[njlam]

Originally Posted by enjoythemusic

^^^+1

i'll humbly add Torsti Laine. For well under $15k YOU can customize the dial decoration AND color(s) to YOUR liking, YOU can choose the hands, YOU can choose the dial numerals, YOU can choose the moment decoration....

And yes, the dial is handmade using a rose machine, it IS NOT stamped.

Imho you owe it to yourself to see his Instagram page, as there are A LOT of options...

https://www.instagram.com/laine_watches/



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I just discovered Laine based on postings on this thread.

Incredibly beautiful and the ability to buy when/what you want.

Looking at both the V38 (auto) and GG3 (manual). Do people have recommendations/favorites?

Aside from the movement, I am trying to decide between a single guilloche dial vs the three level guilloche dial...

[WatchEater666]

Originally Posted by njlam

I just discovered Laine based on postings on this thread.

Incredibly beautiful and the ability to buy when/what you want.

Looking at both the V38 (auto) and GG3 (manual). Do people have recommendations/favorites?

Aside from the movement, I am trying to decide between a single guilloche dial vs the three level guilloche dial...

I would just spring for the 3 level. IMO it's super special and there are loads of good examples of what people have been able to do with it floating around!

[enjoythemusic]

Agree, with Laine go top-line every option possible... if that is the spec you desire. My wife did, but she's like that. They're all good, really, so just spec what YOU desire and will wear.

[will_scofield]

Originally Posted by ACG

My favorites are Ferrier and Dofour.

Ferrier is massively underrated, the amount of hand finishing and the quality of the movement architecture at the price point is tough to beat.

They get knocked for using suppliers for most (if not all) of their parts, but that just means they source the highest quality cases, dials, and hands rather than compel themselves to make it all in house at a higher cost and be limited from a quality and variety perspective.

The overall esthetic and how they wear are just lovely. The restraint and lack of ego their pieces is not common these days.

The production quantity of the micro rotors and especially the annual calendars are much lower than expected given a huge percentage of the annual production is classic origins and now sport autos.

I have tapered my LF collection down somewhat to add other pieces into the fold, but overall I get more joy out of these per dollar than anything else I own.











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[GB-man]

Originally Posted by will_scofield

Ferrier is massively underrated, the amount of hand finishing and the quality of the movement architecture at the price point is tough to beat.

They get knocked for using suppliers for most (if not all) of their parts, but that just means they source the highest quality cases, dials, and hands rather than compel themselves to make it all in house at a higher cost and be limited from a quality and variety perspective.

The overall esthetic and how they wear are just lovely. The restraint and lack of ego their pieces is not common these days.

The production quantity of the micro rotors and especially the annual calendars are much lower than expected given a huge percentage of the annual production is classic origins and now sport autos.

I have tapered my LF collection down somewhat to add other pieces into the fold, but overall I get more joy out of these per dollar than anything else I own.

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Gorgeous pieces will thanks for sharing them

[will_scofield]

Thank you. Not the greatest pictures. I’m often fairly lazy with my watch photos. This type of discussion really is in the details, so I can offer some better close ups of the movement and dial side execution if anyone is interested.


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[ChetBaker]

Love that second picture - is that a brown dial? Very nice.

[Skyrider01]

I just received this latest Trilobe.

[enjoythemusic]

^^^ love this