Grand Seiko vs Rolex Explorer I (39mm)

[RolexDivers]

Originally Posted by CKL1213

After 53 years, they are still not there, because if they succeed building their brand image, we won't be discussing here.

Very correct what you said!

Try trading a GS for a Rolex, from one of our trusted TRF Sellers ...You will get a big fat resounding NO THANKYOU! .... and that NO is enough to tell me that GS is not a watch worth putting $$ into.

[Daytona-Dan]

Originally Posted by ecsub44

Says who?

Says the price tag on a watch that you all seem to think is undeniably superior to a Rolex in every way and yet is half the price.
The brand name is the only thing holding them back

[ecsub44]

Originally Posted by RolexDivers

Very correct what you said!

Try trading a GS for a Rolex, from one of our trusted TRF Sellers ...You will get a big fat resounding NO THANKYOU! .... and that NO is enough to tell me that GS is not a watch worth putting $$ into.

It doesn't always have to be about an "investment" and a return on your money.

This might surprise you, but some people actually buy watches because they like them and they wear them. And they either don't sell them...or don't care about the incurred loss.

[diver2012]

Originally Posted by RolexDivers

Very correct what you said!

Try trading a GS for a Rolex, from one of our trusted TRF Sellers ...You will get a big fat resounding NO THANKYOU! .... and that NO is enough to tell me that GS is not a watch worth putting $$ into.

All that tells you is the majority of watch owners are more concerned with image than the watch itself.

I know loads of people who have a Rolex...none know a thing about the brand or the movement - they just have it because it is 'a Rolex'. Unfortunately, it is this that determines pricing.

[CKL1213]

Originally Posted by Daytona-Dan

I have no problem at all with the Omega brand/pricing even though I know they are owned by swatch. Would I buy a swatch for several thousand? No, but I would buy an Omega.

the way I see it, Omega is the next Rolex.

Omega is doing it right with good products plus good publicity (the james bond thing) and good marketing (Nicole Kidman, George Clooney and etc) and of course The Space Thing.

You can say is all marketing but whether you like it or not, majority of people buy it.

However, our friend Grand Seiko is lacking behind.

Always believe in one thing, When you are good at something, let people know about it.

The problem for Grand Seiko now is only a handful of people knew about it.

Rolex succeed not because just the name "Rolex" because Rolex placed ADs in everywhere major cities where people can easily access their watches to touch and feel and Rolex had service centres located strategically to ease customers.

What have Grand Seiko done in 53 years?

I'm not bashing but Grand Seiko need to work out their marketing plan if they serious about their Grand Seiko watches reaching to watch lovers all around the world.

[ecsub44]

Originally Posted by Daytona-Dan

Says the price tag on a watch that you all seem to think is undeniably superior to a Rolex in every way and yet is half the price.
The brand name is the only thing holding them back

Half the price?

Compare a Sub with a SBGA031.

And just because it might be less expensive doesn't mean the company isn't doing as well. Honda makes quite a bit more money than Ferrari.

[Daytona-Dan]

Originally Posted by ecsub44

Half the price?

Compare a Sub with a SBGA031.

And just because it might be less expensive doesn't mean the company isn't doing as well. Honda makes quite a bit more money than Ferrari.

Yes, but a the Ferrari brand is a lot more luxurious than Honda. I looked up the SBGA031 and apart from looking a bit pants (IMO, sorry) the price was still cheaper than the SubC for a watch you claim to be far superior in every way.

As a reiteration of my point, Honda is probably far more reliable than Ferrari too, but if they were even remotely the same price, you don't need to ask me which one I would choose...

[ecsub44]

Originally Posted by Daytona-Dan

...for a watch you claim to be far superior in every way.

I've never said anything remotely close to that...

However, price and brand name does not always determine quality.

[Fleetlord]

Never choose Grand Seiko over Rolex...ever.

That being said, the Grand Seiko is a beautiful watch, but the branding is awful..

Seiko needs to rethink their high end marketing.

[Daytona-Dan]

Originally Posted by ecsub44

I've never said anything remotely close to that...

And I never said that Seiko is not doing well financially, I was suggesting that the brand could be doing better. Not the company. I'm going by the arguments posed by others and from what I read here, everyone seems to think it's a better watch.

[Chainring]

Originally Posted by ecsub44

It doesn't always have to be about an "investment" and a return on your money.

This might surprise you, but some people actually buy watches because they like them and they wear them. And they either don't we them...or don't care about the incurred loss.

Perhaps you never thought about your watch as an investment but I dare say that one of the things that has made Rolex so popular over the years is that one can own a Rolex with reasonable assurance that over time it will hold its value and likely appreciate. Whether it means anything to you or not, that is a benefit you have as an owner. I don't know why you chose your Rolex but I doubt it was because it was a great timekeeping device. Hell, I have a 20+ year old Vostok Tank Komandirskie that is worth maybe $50. It has never been serviced and never will and it keeps time at +4/day making it more accurate than my GMT Master II.

[Griever369]

Based on my signature i have alot more Rolex than my one GS. Be as it may I wear my Rolexes almost everyday and rarely wear the GS. I will be adamant absolutely that the GS is a better build and accuracy than my Rolexes. which doesn't really matter to me. I like my watches cos i like my watches and they suit its purposes. So far no watch iv'e owned beats the beauty and value of my 116713. Yes the GS doesnt have the international prestige of Rolex but in Japan or when dealing with Japanese who are much wealthier than me I find that the Grand Seiko gets much more respect and admiration than any of my Rolexes. If its all about the name yea Rolex has international recognition. But Grand Seiko doesnt because of marketing, that being they never used to sell it outside of Japan. But its changing now theyre bringing it international and slowly international perceptions are changing hence threads like this. Honestly It was hard to drop that amount for a "Seiko" but go have a look at it in real life. Dont just blast it from an armchair or from pictures. It will still be hard to make yourself pay that much for a Seiko. But at least in seeing it in person you can understand why for people where its all about the watch and not so much the name on it they can and have paid so much for it. That being said, i do wish my GS had a much better resale value :p Not that i would sell it but simply because its nice to know i can.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by RolexDivers

Very correct what you said!

Try trading a GS for a Rolex, from one of our trusted TRF Sellers ...You will get a big fat resounding NO THANKYOU! .... and that NO is enough to tell me that GS is not a watch worth putting $$ into.

How do you know have you tried or is that just supposition on your part again.IMHO this reasoning about Seiko only applies to mainly the Western mentality.Now the Japanese don't have any problem buying a super high end model from Seiko grand and from the same company that produces a $50- $100 watches.And before the early 1940s Rolex watches in general were not so well heard of in the USA or even sold there but Seiko was.And back in those early watch days most in the USA bought Waltham watches now they produced a 7 jewel low end model which was the biggest seller, as well as a high end models just like Seiko.The name Seikosha means basically house of fine craftsmen,and just 19 very skilled watchmakers assemble by hand the mechanical Seiko Grand movements and until quite recently were not heard of outside Japan which IMO was a great shame. And with the Spring drive well it took a total 28 years of development before Seiko was satisfied it was perfect enough to release it for public sale.And the springdrive movement need very very special skills from around 10 specialty skilled watchmakers just to assemble the movements .And these watches are not mass produced and highly robotised like Rolex are today to produce the 800000 plus units a year.

[powerfunk]

Originally Posted by CKL1213

The problem for Grand Seiko now is only a handful of people knew about it...What have Grand Seiko done in 53 years?

I'm not bashing but Grand Seiko need to work out their marketing plan if they serious about their Grand Seiko watches reaching to watch lovers all around the world.

True, Grand Seiko's "image" with the general public is basically nil. I don't think they make that many, though -- and I don't think they have that much trouble selling them all. If I'm not mistaken, they're all assembled by a very small team of the most senior grandmaster watchmakers at Seiko, and they probably make 1/100th of the amount of watches that Rolex makes. It does appear that they'd have had a wider audience in the US if they would've "Lexusified" the Grand Seiko name though. But oh well!

[improviz]

Originally Posted by RolexDivers

Very correct what you said!

Try trading a GS for a Rolex, from one of our trusted TRF Sellers ...You will get a big fat resounding NO THANKYOU! .... and that NO is enough to tell me that GS is not a watch worth putting $$ into.

What are you talking about?? I've seen several of the trusted TRF Sellers selling GS watches, you think they think they're junk or something? George AB, who sells Rolex and many other luxury brands, has spoken very favorably of GS, and in fact had (and may still have) one of his own for a good many years, and has said on numerous occasions that it's one of the best-finished watches on the market.

The SBGE001 seems to sell for $4500 preowned on average, around 60% of msrp, which puts them in pretty good company, in the same range as several of the elite Swiss brands and better than some in fact (not as good as a few of the Rolex sports models, but have you priced a preowned-vs-new gold Daytona lately?). So it's not as though they're worthless on the secondary market, particularly if one purchases one at a good discount new, as is likely the case.

So if you pick one up at a 20% discount and sell it preowned for $4500, you're getting 70% of price paid....which would hardly put it in the resale dregs department.

[Daytona-Dan]

Originally Posted by padi56

How do you know have you tried or is that just supposition on your part again.IMHO this reasoning about Seiko only applies to mainly the Western mentality.Now the Japanese don't have any problem buying a super high end model from Seiko grand and from the same company that produces a $50- $100 watches.And before the early 1940s Rolex watches in general were not so well heard of in the USA or even sold there but Seiko was.And back in those early watch days most in the USA bought Waltham watches now they produced a 7 jewel low end model which was the biggest seller, as well as a high end models just like Seiko.The name Seikosha means basically house of fine craftsmen,and just 19 very skilled watchmakers assemble by hand the mechanical Seiko Grand movements and until quite recently were not heard of outside Japan which IMO was a great shame. And with the Spring drive well it took a total 28 years of development before Seiko was satisfied it was perfect enough to release it for public sale.And the springdrive movement need very very special skills from around 10 specialty skilled watchmakers just to assemble the movements .And these watches are not mass produced and highly robotised like Rolex are today to produce the 800000 plus units a year.

Peter, when you lay it out like this Grand Seiko is quite possible the only manufacturer that is actually putting in the work to justify the price tag. If we had similar attention to detail and limited numbers from Rolex I'm guessing we would be paying 10 times the price for them!

It really is all about the name for me and I fully admit it.

Originally Posted by improviz

have you priced a preowned-vs-new gold Daytona lately?

Thankfully not everyone buys watches for resale!

[Chainring]

Originally Posted by padi56

How do you know have you tried or is that just supposition on your part again.IMHO this reasoning about Seiko only applies to mainly the Western mentality.Now the Japanese don't have any problem buying a super high end model from Seiko grand and from the same company that produces a $50- $100 watches.And before the early 1940s Rolex watches in general were not so well heard of in the USA or even sold there but Seiko was.And back in those early watch days most in the USA bought Waltham watches now they produced a 7 jewel low end model which was the biggest seller, as well as a high end models just like Seiko.The name Seikosha means basically house of fine craftsmen,and just 19 very skilled watchmakers assemble by hand the mechanical Seiko Grand movements and until quite recently were not heard of outside Japan which IMO was a great shame. And with the Spring drive well it took a total 28 years of development before Seiko was satisfied it was perfect enough to release it for public sale.And the springdrive movement need very very special skills from around 10 specialty skilled watchmakers just to assemble the movements .And these watches are not mass produced and highly robotised like Rolex are today to produce the 800000 plus units a year.

Peter, don't you think that Grand Seiko isn't the only watch maker doing great things and still under the shadow of names like Rolex and Patek? I love Rolex above all other watches but I don't intend on being a Rolex only collector. Unfortunately, I'm not as wealthy as some here so I can't afford to take chances on a very expensive watch just because I happen to like it. I really need whatever I buy to be personally appealing to me, have significance in the watch world and have a slight chance of holding its value in the long run. It's a shame that other companies don't market or can't market like Rolex.

[improviz]

Originally Posted by Daytona-Dan

Thankfully not everyone buys watches for resale!

Agreed, was responding to argument along those lines from another poster.

[Griever369]

Originally Posted by improviz

Let's start here:


GS is a line, not a model. You state right there that you've had "respect for GS from a hybrid movement point of view", but again the fact is that GS, Grand Seiko, is a line, not a particular model, and they are not in any way, shape, or form, all hybrids. "A GS" is like saying "A Rolex", it denotes the entire line, far different from saying "A SBGA001" or "An Explorer"

Here you state that **any** GS's heritage is quartz, which implies that all have quartz movements (false), which are derived from earlier quartz movements (also false):


Further, in this post you implied that Seiko was guilty of false advertising by producing hybrid movements and passing them off as mechanical, when in fact a) they produce and have produced purely mechanical movements for a good many years, and b) they hide nothing, there is a separate site they run which fully explains the design and operation of the Spring Drive.



As pointed out by Padi, Seiko makes excellent pure mechanical movements, good enough to have beaten the Swiss for several years until the Swiss lobbied to make the competition Swiss-only.

And again, here:


Perhaps that would be due to their fine mechanical watches, which as Padi pointed out to you cleaned up the floor with the Swiss stuff until the Swiss lobbied to have them removed from the competition?

Want more? Fine. You explicitly stated at several points over the course of the thread that Seiko's heritage is cheap quartz watches:



False. Btw, in addition to looking up Seiko's history you might also want to research the term "Oysterquartz".



False, per Padi's post.

Support for the facts stated above. Doesn't take a lot of research to verify all that above so whoever still denies it is just plain lazy. I really wanted to bring out the oysterquartz and the omega autoquartz(seiko spring drive technology) lol but you beat me too it. Yes Seiko has a history of cheap quartz watches. But inside of Japan they also have a history of extremely good mechanical watches. Its only known in Japan not because they aren't good watches. Its not known simply because Japan considers it too good to export and keeps it for themselves as they do for the best things they produce. I am glad that there are enough people here with knowledge or do seek enough knowledge to have a valid debate instead of just having a brand bash. That having said. Just buy what you like not what people tell you you like. Your watch is a personal thing, what you choose is what you tell people about you. :D

[jshepard]

I'd go for the Explorer I... I admit I am shallow when it comes to this, but I couldn't spend that much money on a dial that says Seiko... Essentially, their primary function is no different to that of a $20 Timex so for that kind of money between the two, if anyone notices at all, I'd rather it say Rolex. Some may argue, then I wouldn't go for a Patek or VC because most people don't know what that is, but then no one knows whether its expensive or not while when people see a Seiko they will automatically associate it with a <$100 watch. I'd be a liar if I said I didn't care at all. And since you've asked our opinion twice on while watch to get (this one and the Milgauss v explorer thread) then I'm gonna assume you're with me on caring at least a little on what others think.

[Kobayashi]

Thanks Padi for your comments. I always appreciate your posts. A GS is in my very near future. At this point it's just a matter of dial color for me :).

[Griever369]

Originally Posted by CKL1213

the way I see it, Omega is the next Rolex.

Omega is doing it right with good products plus good publicity (the james bond thing) and good marketing (Nicole Kidman, George Clooney and etc) and of course The Space Thing.

You can say is all marketing but whether you like it or not, majority of people buy it.

However, our friend Grand Seiko is lacking behind.

Always believe in one thing, When you are good at something, let people know about it.

The problem for Grand Seiko now is only a handful of people knew about it.

Rolex succeed not because just the name "Rolex" because Rolex placed ADs in everywhere major cities where people can easily access their watches to touch and feel and Rolex had service centres located strategically to ease customers.

What have Grand Seiko done in 53 years?

I'm not bashing but Grand Seiko need to work out their marketing plan if they serious about their Grand Seiko watches reaching to watch lovers all around the world.

Hey CKL, yea Seiko is working on their marketing plan lol. Cos theyre only just starting it. Grand Seiko hasn't really been sold outside of Japan except recently in the past few years. So previously their international marketing plan is 0 now it is people who love watches debating in forums with other"top" international brands within a few years of international launch. Sounds like its going well lol. How many brands can do something like that without a good product or an actual heritage which is what some here claim lol.

[landroverking]

Some one said Omega was the next Rolex. Well history shows us that Rolex was really the next Omega. Yes there was a time when Omega was more sought after world wide than Rolex and the two were very close in price. Will this happen to GS, not likely as they are produced in very small numbers compared to Rolex.

[R.J.]

Originally Posted by Kobayashi

Thanks Padi for your comments. I always appreciate your posts. A GS is in my very near future. At this point it's just a matter of dial color for me :).

Good for you. Believe me you will love it.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Daytona-Dan

Peter, when you lay it out like this Grand Seiko is quite possible the only manufacturer that is actually putting in the work to justify the price tag. If we had similar attention to detail and limited numbers from Rolex I'm guessing we would be paying 10 times the price for them!

It really is all about the name for me and I fully admit it.



Thankfully not everyone buys watches for resale!

The fact of the matter is Rolex makes very fine mechanical movements so does Seiko Grand plus many others.Myself been after a Vintage late 1960s early 1970s Seiko grand for quite some time.I missed one a few years ago while over in Singapore biggest mistake I ever made.While then Rolex were almost two a penny so many around, that particular Seiko grand was as rare as rocking horse sh#te in the western world.But like most all so called high end watches today you pay a high price for a name on a dial.But movement wise and pure attention to detail and over all quality as much as I love Rolex, afraid the Seiko grand wins IMHO in every of those departments.

[Griever369]

Originally Posted by padi56

The fact of the matter is Rolex makes very fine mechanical movements so does Seiko Grand plus many others.Myself been after a Vintage late 1960s early 1970s Seiko grand for quite some time.I missed one a few years ago while over in Singapore biggest mistake I ever made.While then Rolex were almost two a penny so many around, that particular Seiko grand was as rare as rocking horse sh#te in the western world.But like most all so called high end watches today you pay a high price for a name on a dial.But movement wise and pure attention to detail and over all quality as much as I love Rolex, afraid the Seiko grand wins IMHO in every of those departments.

Support. Seiko wins in all but for international recognition and resale. For now. But i only agree for the mechanical movements. I dont like the spring drive designs as much and the problem with the GS diving range is the acrylic for the bezel are very hard to read due to the magnifying and distortion effect of the acrylic.

[MrLee]

Originally Posted by improviz

Let's start here:


GS is a line, not a model. You state right there that you've had "respect for GS from a hybrid movement point of view", but again the fact is that GS, Grand Seiko, is a line, not a particular model, and they are not in any way, shape, or form, all hybrids. "A GS" is like saying "A Rolex", it denotes the entire line, far different from saying "A SBGA001" or "An Explorer"

Here you state that **any** GS's heritage is quartz, which implies that all have quartz movements (false), which are derived from earlier quartz movements (also false):


Further, in this post you implied that Seiko was guilty of false advertising by producing hybrid movements and passing them off as mechanical, when in fact a) they produce and have produced purely mechanical movements for a good many years, and b) they hide nothing, there is a separate site they run which fully explains the design and operation of the Spring Drive.



As pointed out by Padi, Seiko makes excellent pure mechanical movements, good enough to have beaten the Swiss for several years until the Swiss lobbied to make the competition Swiss-only.

And again, here:


Perhaps that would be due to their fine mechanical watches, which as Padi pointed out to you cleaned up the floor with the Swiss stuff until the Swiss lobbied to have them removed from the competition?

Want more? Fine. You explicitly stated at several points over the course of the thread that Seiko's heritage is cheap quartz watches:



False. Btw, in addition to looking up Seiko's history you might also want to research the term "Oysterquartz".



False, per Padi's post.

Ok so you have proved me right, I didn't say all GS's were quartz, I said the brand was synonymous with quartz which is true. You mention the oysterquartz but as I had already said in a previous post I have nothing against quartz per say, and I'm fully aware that even patek make quartz watches, the difference is we are comparing a hybrid watch vs a mechanical watch, I personally have more respect movement wise for the purely mechanical watch.

It's also quite funny that you highlighted in bold a section where I didn't say every GS was quartz, I said the heritage of seiko was quartz watches, funny, heritage does not equal all!

[CKL1213]

Originally Posted by Griever369

Hey CKL, yea Seiko is working on their marketing plan lol. Cos theyre only just starting it. Grand Seiko hasn't really been sold outside of Japan except recently in the past few years. So previously their international marketing plan is 0 now it is people who love watches debating in forums with other"top" international brands within a few years of international launch. Sounds like its going well lol. How many brands can do something like that without a good product or an actual heritage which is what some here claim lol.

actually if we think carefully, what are we debating here?

the OP want to choose and compare a Rolex and a Grand Seiko not Omega, not IWC, not AP, not JLC and not etc...

what is the sign?

Grand Seiko is actually making wave as of now...

it's happening, people started to notice them and want to make comparison...

the more we debate the more people will get curious about Grand Seiko and they will research more on Grand Seiko and chain reaction.

seems like Grand Seiko marketing on forum is working out.

now is how to let the pedestrians know about the existence of Grand Seiko

[MrLee]

Originally Posted by CKL1213

now is how to let the pedestrians know about the existence of Grand Seiko

And I think this is where the difficulty will come for the brand in Europe and America. People here (uk) generally aren't that geeky about watch movements, so they will look at a seiko that costs £5k and be turned off. It will be difficult to erase the cheap watch image of the brand from people's minds, it can be done but I think the jump in price from a seiko to a GS is also quite a hurdle to overcome

[padi56]

Originally Posted by MrLee

And I think this is where the difficulty will come for the brand in Europe and America. People here generally aren't that geeky about watch movements, so they will look at a seiko that costs £5k and be turned off. It will be difficult to erase the cheap watch image of the brand from people's minds, it can be done but I think the jump in price from a seiko to a GS is quite a hurdle to overcome

But only to those have been stereo typed by just a name only.