AD’s attitudes

[IGY]

UK based watch enthusiast here. I am not really interested to write a long complaint about UK Rolex ADs but my impression is that the ones I've experienced (Laings, Watches of Switzerland and Bucherer) suck.

Three core symptoms of monopolistic distribution:

1) They are all playing the bundling game, even though it is wrapped up in language like "I would never want you to buy something you don't want. But buying this would just help me, help you".

2) They have all suffered from high staff turn over. Sales person wants to "build a relationship with me". Yet few of them last long in their jobs before moving to another dealership or leaving the industry. None of the ADs arrange new sales people to make introductory calls to clients from these dearly departed sales people. Very weird because healthy relationships are two way and yet the ADs only seem to want abusive relationships where one side puts in all the effort while they give nothing more than a sparkling water in return.

3) Watch knowledge from Rolex sales people is poor. Many are clueless about the watch movements. And sales patter that tries to tell me sales features about incorrect "facts" concerning the watches. Like "Rolex uses a proprietary grade of steel called 904 that is more scratch resistant than stainless steel used in other watches". I hope I don't need to explain to anyone on this forum why two of the assertions made in that sentence are factually incorrect.

In summary:

I don't like the experience that I've had from any of these Rolex ADs one bit. While I'm not happy, neither am I crying about it here or anywhere else. My reaction has been to simply continue to be civil with these Rolex ADs and if I get offered one of the watches that I am interested in, then fine... I will buy it. My point is instead that the ADs "value added" in this process will have been a net negative, not a positive. And they will not have earned their sales commission.

Instead I've spent money on other watch brands. I've deliberately shopped with single brand boutiques owned by the brands themselves wherever possible. None of them have tried to bundle sales for me to get what I want. In all but one case the sales people I've been dealing with are still in their positions and I'm speaking with the same person. And with one brand in particular the sales contact has a fantastic knowledge of the products that he is selling which I find genuinely interesting to speak with. And none of them have tried giving me false sales patter instead saying "unsure, but I'll find out for you" when I've asked them something unfamiliar.

Ahh that was longer than I expected. But this was not really intended as a rant. But the buying experience at Rolex ADs in the UK is poor and the poor service from the watch supermarkets has driven me away from the brand to other watch brands that I can access direct. That's my experience and my opinion.

[rockysw]

Originally Posted by IGY

UK based watch enthusiast here. I am not really interested to write a long complaint about UK Rolex ADs but my impression is that the ones I've experienced (Laings, Watches of Switzerland and Bucherer) suck.

Three core symptoms of monopolistic distribution:

1) They are all playing the bundling game, even though it is wrapped up in language like "I would never want you to buy something you don't want. But buying this would just help me, help you".

2) They have all suffered from high staff turn over. Sales person wants to "build a relationship with me". Yet few of them last long in their jobs before moving to another dealership or leaving the industry. None of the ADs arrange new sales people to make introductory calls to clients from these dearly departed sales people. Very weird because healthy relationships are two way and yet the ADs only seem to want abusive relationships where one side puts in all the effort while they give nothing more than a sparkling water in return.

3) Watch knowledge from Rolex sales people is poor. Many are clueless about the watch movements. And sales patter that tries to tell me sales features about incorrect "facts" concerning the watches. Like "Rolex uses a proprietary grade of steel called 904 that is more scratch resistant than stainless steel used in other watches". I hope I don't need to explain to anyone on this forum why two of the assertions made in that sentence are factually incorrect.

In summary:

I don't like the experience that I've had from any of these Rolex ADs one bit. While I'm not happy, neither am I crying about it here or anywhere else. My reaction has been to simply continue to be civil with these Rolex ADs and if I get offered one of the watches that I am interested in, then fine... I will buy it. My point is instead that the ADs "value added" in this process will have been a net negative, not a positive. And they will not have earned their sales commission.

Instead I've spent money on other watch brands. I've deliberately shopped with single brand boutiques owned by the brands themselves wherever possible. None of them have tried to bundle sales for me to get what I want. In all but one case the sales people I've been dealing with are still in their positions and I'm speaking with the same person. And with one brand in particular the sales contact has a fantastic knowledge of the products that he is selling which I find genuinely interesting to speak with. And none of them have tried giving me false sales patter instead saying "unsure, but I'll find out for you" when I've asked them something unfamiliar.

Ahh that was longer than I expected. But this was not really intended as a rant. But the buying experience at Rolex ADs in the UK is poor and the poor service from the watch supermarkets has driven me away from the brand to other watch brands that I can access direct. That's my experience and my opinion.

Overall I agree with you. Some might have better experience in terms of visiting and viewing the watches but when it comes to actual allocation (which is what really matters) then it is all about the spend. Yeah sure you can get some DJs or some OPs but the allocation of the high in demand pieces is based on your spend.

[Just another rider]

For me it depended on the AD in question and luckily I have two authorized Rolex dealers in my city.

My core principles in life are humbleness, acceptance and gratitude so this is how I approach my watch hobby as well (together with unhealthy level of passion and research about watches, I admit). So in the same manner I have approached first AD with what I believe was honest interest and inquiry and was repeatedly faced with borderline rudeness and was few times dismissed. They have taken my interest on the list but after few months I have withdrawn it as I felt I don't want to wear a watch that would remind me of this AD's behavior. And I need to stress that Rolex and especially watch in question would not have anything to do with this.
After few months I walked in second AD in my city, started talking with store manager who was very knowledgeable and shared similar passion regarding mechanical timepieces. At one moment during our conversation he paused and said that they would be privileged if I would choose them as a place were I would buy my first Rolex. I said I am interested in Rolex Explorer - 124270 and in one month time I got the watch.
So for me it worked because I found someone at the AD who understands depth of loving watches but for sure it also helped that I didn't put my interest for the highest sought after models.

[dukie748]

StuPots post pretty much hit it on the head.

WoS all but have a monopoly in the UK, hence the OP's frustration.

In the US (at least for now) we still have quite a few independents to choose from.

[Stupot]

Originally Posted by dukie748

StuPots post pretty much hit it on the head.

WoS all but have a monopoly in the UK, hence the OP's frustration.

In the US (at least for now) we still have quite a few independents to choose from.

The bizarre bit for me is it’s Rolex themselves that have decided this is the route to market to go down. You would think customer service and general perception would have been higher up their list of priorities, as its key to longevity, the current frenzy will only last so long. That’s why I think there is more at play here, Rolex aren’t daft! Understatement!

It’s been a conscious business decision at some point years ago to start putting all their distribution eggs in one basket and the UK unfortunately for us residents seems to be “ahead” of the game down this road.

Bigger corporate companies in any sector will never have a customer’s interests at heart, or treat a customer the way an independent would, so coupling that with geographical borders a customer can’t shop outwith, and within those borders there is only one company you can deal with is never going to end well for the customer. There is a bigger picture question as to whether this sort of set up should even be allowed, it would be severely dealt with in other sectors.

WOS are clearly a well run, from a profit perspective, successful business. They are taking full advantage of the above and making sure if they do you a favour allocating you a watch it is only because you have done them a favour by having a fat profitable spend history.

Without going in to too much detail, they have such a strict sign off policy for allocation which escalates depending on the grade of watch, sale execs referring you to the manager, some then going to the area manager, some then going to head office, this pretty much makes an allocation of something “tasty” to a “normal” genuine enthusiast almost impossible. I know someone will always come up with an example as an exception, but please believe that it is indeed not the norm and there has been a bit of luck involved and for whatever reason their normal process hasn’t been followed, it does happen.

Business 101, yes, but pretty understandable why genuine watch collectors would find it frustrating when they find themselves on the wrong side of the fence looking in, and surely it has to be damaging longer term for the brand.

As you correctly allude to, I think you can also see it starting to happen in the US, although given it’s such a huge market with the vast number of outlets it’s obviously a slower transition away from the independents.

I mentioned in a previous post, is there more going on, a bigger plot twist? Do they let WOS have a short period of fun, and then do a Bucherer on them, they then have the direct to consumer model they see AP having success with?

Very strange situation.

[russeree]

Pretty much lost it today after having a convo with another SA at my AD and left a very honest Google Review no bars held. Overall it felt good to get it off my chest that yes I spent a ton of money and ended up with a watch that is marginally over retail at the time of purchase and lower than MSRP now. At the end of the day though what really got me was that during 2023 as I was starting my own business my income contracted substantially and suddenly all comms went completely dark.This went largely unnoticed as I was incredibly busy trying to keep my business alive.

The part that stung was that after a hard year and low income, this year is fantastic and I have launched. Lets see about getting a watch. It felt that everything of the past was gone, the purchase history meant nothing, my WL entries were forgotten. Overall the goal now is no longer to play the game of buying to get. If I can't just get the piece, then it's time to just get it from the grey market. It's the time and transparency that matter to me.

[Harry-57]

Originally Posted by IGY

2) They have all suffered from high staff turn over.
3) Watch knowledge from Rolex sales people is poor.

Interesting post. I've singled out two excerpts because they describe the opposite of the situation at my local AD. I think this probably says it all. There's no substitute for good management.

[Neil McCauley]

Originally Posted by russeree

Overall it felt good to get it off my chest that yes I spent a ton of money and ended up with a watch that is marginally over retail at the time of purchase and lower than MSRP now.

I fail to see how this is the fault of the AD, my friend. This is on you.

[dukie748]

Originally Posted by Stupot

Without going in to too much detail, they have such a strict sign off policy for allocation which escalates depending on the grade of watch, sale execs referring you to the manager, some then going to the area manager, some then going to head office, this pretty much makes an allocation of something “tasty” to a “normal” genuine enthusiast almost impossible.

When I lived in the UK I had a small independent AD I worked with for over 13 years, had a good spend history and made regular purchases - both watches and jewelry.

They were later bought out by WoS and I was told that I would need to 'build a relationship from scratch'. What irked me was the person that told me this was the store manager, the same store manager that WoS had retained from the old AD, and the same gentleman I had worked with for many years.

Back in 2021 WoS outlined their intent to expand their existing UK model further into the US market - will be interesting to see how this plays out - especially since Rolex have since purchased Bucherer.

[njlam]

Originally Posted by dukie748

will be interesting to see how this plays out - especially since Rolex have since purchased Bucherer.

It is worth noting that the stock price of WOS dropped over 30% when the Bucherer acquisition was announced and the stock has continued to struggle despite the overall stock market doing better.

I for one feel the AD model has to change and am hoping the Rolex owned boutique model puts all the others out of business.

[russeree]

Originally Posted by Neil McCauley

I fail to see how this is the fault of the AD, my friend. This is on you.

I agree, and willingly engaged the whole way. Just in hindsight I should have taken a different approach.

[IGY]

Originally Posted by njlam

It is worth noting that the stock price of WOS dropped over 30% when the Bucherer acquisition was announced and the stock has continued to struggle despite the overall stock market doing better.
I for one feel the AD model has to change and am hoping the Rolex owned boutique model puts all the others out of business.

From my experience of shopping in London Bucherer is playing the same bundling game as WoS. And Rolex is allowing Rolex to manage their new flagship brand store on Bond Street which is being refurbished from its prior use at great expense. I think that Rolex understands that to sell the volumes of watches that it is manufacturing that it needs the distribution of the watch supermarkets. After all watch retail is much more capital intensive with huge commercial real estate leases than their core business of watch manufacturing and wholesale distribution.

So WoS and Bucherer will continue to act as gatekeepers of Rolex, they will continue to play the bundling game and nothing will change. Meanwhile if you already have a business relationship with a well managed local independent then good for you - you should continue to respect that. But as the OP's story warns us: his independent AD being taken over by WoS, then he was told that he is back to being a stranger with no purchase history. You should know that the "rules of the game" being imposed could be changed on you at any time.

It is what it is, unfortunately.

[njlam]

I think it is possible that the Rolex acquisition of Bucherer changes the retail game significantly.

By owning Bucherer, Rolex is able to capture the entire retail profit margin, so in markets where there are other large watch stores (WOS, BB, etc), why would they want to sell any watch (much less the sought after models) for only the wholesale profit margin. When the acquisition was announced, the stock price of WOS was slammed (and has not recovered), so the stock market thinks this is meaningful change to WOS profitability.

In markets where Bucherer does not have a presence, it is possible things may remain the same (for now).

With the coincidence of forced closings of independent ADs and the Bucherer acquisition, I think Rolex is sending a message that their distribution practices are going to change.

[Cassian739]

Originally Posted by njlam

I for one feel the AD model has to change and am hoping the Rolex owned boutique model puts all the others out of business.

Originally Posted by njlam

I think it is possible that the Rolex acquisition of Bucherer changes the retail game significantly.

In markets where Bucherer does not have a presence, it is possible things may remain the same (for now).

With the coincidence of forced closings of independent ADs and the Bucherer acquisition, I think Rolex is sending a message that their distribution practices are going to change.

^ I agree with these quotes. Unless you have a direct relationship with the family that owns an independent AD, you’re hosed. I’ve had it with most independent ADs and only shop at Bucherer these days for all Rolex/non-Rolex watch purchases, unless I have to go to a brand owned boutique.

[IGY]

For anyone wondering if this will be good or bad for consumers long term consider the experience of people shopping for sunglasses or spectacles in America:

After Luxottica purchased Lenscrafters, there is an near monopoly on these markets. There is the façade of consumer choice when you shop in Lenscrafters stores there are dozens of brands to choose from. However 100% of these are Luxottica brands, many of which are the same mediocre quality made in the same factories with different brand badges glued / stamped on.

Even in the few surviving independent dealers usually 90%+ of the brands they stock are Luxottica brands. Partly because brand marketing means this is what consumers are asking for and partly because Luxottica pressure the independent retailers to give them the most valuable store retail space.

End result in the eyewear market, dozens on brands all made to the same low quality denominator in the same factory. The broad point here is that vertical integration / consolidation was bad for consumer choice in this market.

I am not saying that the Swiss luxury watch market will consolidate in the same way. I don't think that it will. But I do think that vertical integration of such an large retail chain and one of the big manufacturers will be unhealthy for consumer choice and prices. Just because Rolex + Bucherer is unambiguously bad for WoS, it does not logically follow that this consolidation is good for consumers.

[Neil McCauley]

Originally Posted by IGY

For anyone wondering if this will be good or bad for consumers long term consider the experience of people shopping for sunglasses or spectacles in America:

After Luxottica purchased Lenscrafters, there is an near monopoly on these markets. There is the façade of consumer choice when you shop in Lenscrafters stores there are dozens of brands to choose from. However 100% of these are Luxottica brands, many of which are the same mediocre quality made in the same factories with different brand badges glued / stamped on.

Even in the few surviving independent dealers usually 90%+ of the brands they stock are Luxottica brands. Partly because brand marketing means this is what consumers are asking for and partly because Luxottica pressure the independent retailers to give them the most valuable store retail space.

End result in the eyewear market, dozens on brands all made to the same low quality denominator in the same factory. The broad point here is that vertical integration / consolidation was bad for consumer choice in this market.

I am not saying that the Swiss luxury watch market will consolidate in the same way. I don't think that it will. But I do think that vertical integration of such an large retail chain and one of the big manufacturers will be unhealthy for consumer choice and prices. Just because Rolex + Bucherer is unambiguously bad for WoS, it does not logically follow that this consolidation is good for consumers.

I think just to take Rolex into consideration on this point, it will all be fairly irrelevant, because no matter what happens, demand will continue to way outstrip supply for the most part. That is a very unusual circumstance to have in a retail environment.

What I mean by that is, Rolex + Bucherer pushing out WoS will likely have 0 effect on the consumer from where we are today. Other than perhaps the odd piece not making it straight to the grey market here and there. Watches will continue to be hard to obtain, and retail prices are very unlikely to drop. Choice will remain the same, because the Rolex catalogue is the Rolex catalogue, and if you want something different, the choice is abundant. The only winner in this entire scenario is of course, Rolex themselves.

[enjoythemusic]

Color me very grateful as once again my fave Rolex AD, Mayors / WoS in Tampa, is doing their best to produce a rare, very rare timepiece for Yours Truly. Excellent customer service and they keep me updated, etc too.

A bit of kindness goes a long way. jmho

Try a little tenderness
Tenderness, tenderness
All you gotta do...

[Khans14]

A bit off the main topic but you hit the mail on the head with the sunglasses market / quality issue in the above post. Hands down best sunglasses I own (multiple pairs) are an independent. Randolph Engineering from outside of Boston in the US are fantastic. Opinions vary, but I think they are basically to sunglasses what Rolex is to watches. Also, ANAZING customer service.

[Mimar2910]

You can always change your AD if you're not giving the right attention, it's easier, and could be to your advantage.

[kopi-c]

Originally Posted by padi56

Well in reality its the buyers fault some think they got to treat ADs as some sort of god. And must do what ever the AD states to buy a mass produced watch, and as their are many willing to play these ADs games. Cannot blame the ADs for jumping on the AD kiss ar#se extra money off buyer bandwagon. Now if prospective buyers stopped playing these ADs games, as in the real world they are just shops that sells watches nothing more perhaps we could get back to normally.

I agree Pete.

The AD in UK sound awful tho.. OP had already some spend history but still cannot get the watch he wants.