Question on Full Sets

[Beaumont Miller II]

I think most people would agree that if you had a perfect vintage Rolex that was unpolished with a perfect dial it would command a premium price. If box and papers were included, it would be worth more. Some of my vintage pieces have box and papers and some don't. I like some tried to take advantage of this market to go after the pieces with box and papers included. Here is my question: Just how important are these box and papers compared to the condition of the watches we seek?
Lets take a DRSD in excellent condition, polished some but not overly so, dial immaculate with hands that match the patina on the dial. Who would trade this watch in for one with chips on the dial and rounded lugs from polishing but with box and papers?
Another example: does it make more sense to own a Red Sub with correct dial for the year and perfect condition or to own one that that has flaking lume but with box and papers.
I am sure that price is a factor. In my mind I have decided that it is about the watch first and condition is the most important factor. Box and papers are a plus, but I don't think I want to sacrifice condition to get one with box and papers. A good friend told me yesterday, "You can't wear papers."
I would like to hear your thoughts. Happy collecting to everyone.

[mike]

Box and papers always add to the package, but personally I would err on the side of condition of the piece.

[Renoir]

Originally Posted by mike

Box and papers always add to the package, but personally I would err on the side of condition of the piece.

Me too....condition is king, everything else is just a bonus. I would pass up a complete set in favor of a cleaner example without the goodies.

[swissautopro]

Have to agree - condition first.

[whiskyguy]

I agree 100%

For me boxes&papers were the natural evolution of my collection and to be honest I have been very fortunate in turning up a few examples in the last months.

I rate watches by the following criteria:

1) Case condition
the most important I try to buy first owner watches fresh to market and prefer them to be unpolished. My biggest complaint is deformed lug holes. I feel that you can usually find a new dial (if you have the cash) but it is nearly impossible to fix an overly/poorly polished case

2) Dial and Hands

These should match lume should be intact and not stained, dial should not be bubbling or chipped/scratched, no signs of water damage, and be correct for the year of watch

3) papers

Papers next in this order:
I prefer punched, typed, Hand written

4) Original Bracelet

5) other accessories

6) Original Box

I prefer to have inner and outer boxes hopefull with correct reference #sticker on outer

7) Bonus

remnants of case back sticker
interesting provenence
etc

of course i'd trade my kidney for Jedlys NOS DRSD

cheers

Adam

[sakuraba]

I would put a premium to the condition of the dial, hands, and case first.

Second would be the original bracelet and its condition.

The box and papers would be a great bonus, but it is just that - a bonus after the first two conditions are met.

[greekbum]

I have been collecting for years.I threw my box and papers in the garbage can as I walked out of the AD back in the mid 80's when I bought my 1st GMT.IMHO Box and papers and something to the package.That something has a value to some and to others it doesn't.Boxes can be found for the most part easily its the punched warranty paper that seems to add some $ to the package in some instances.When I buy a watch if it has punched papers its a bonus and not even thought about unless I like the watch.I might pay a premium of say 10% or so but more than that is a stretch unless it is not a common watch and a rare model. A beat up watch with papers is still a beat up watch and I would pass. Non punched papers are not worth anything more to me as I have seen to many blanks out there through the years.The condition of the watch is everything and this is what I care about the rest are extras.A note on complete sets.I have bought many watches from original owners throughout the years.Owners that kept everything and swore this is how they got the watch new.Not every sport model came with a sporty box or had all the tags, books etc. 1 of my best sets was from a person that sent a watch to Rolex NY to get repaired and they lost it.They sent him a new watch and he didnt like it and never wore it.It came from RUSA with all sorts of goodies. Happy hunting to all.

[maverick]

Considering the watch is authentic and original the condition of the case, hopefully unpolished, and the dial are the main things I look at.

Paperwork is easier to fake than watches. The same can be said for boxes. I will pay a premium for a complete package but not too much more. It is nice to have all the original paperwork and little bits.

I will say that 'complete packages' seem to sell much faster. JMHO =) Maverick

[SLS]

I only wear the watch, the B&P are just a bonus. IMHO, I have actually become more leery of a Red Subs, DRSD, 1655, etc. that have all goodies...as Mav mentioned, these goodies are easily faked, often less scrutinized and in, most cases overlooked, that the premium is not worth it.
Scott

[hitchens]

I've seen blank papers on auction at the bay......so yes, just like a frankenwatch, papers can be "assembled" to increase the value of a crappy watch. Buy the condition of the watch first and foremost.

The only papers that I would pay for come in a roll.........

[Tools]

I am not a serious collector, nor am I interested in collecting museum pieces...I won't pay anything "extra" for papers, and certainly nothing for the box.... That leaves the condition of the piece paramount

I recognise that very early collector vintage is rare if it includes everything.... that's why it costs so much....they are very rare...

If you look at watches in the sapphire era, which is where I have decided to concentrate, there are simply too many of them to ever be near a "complete 6200 package".... and RSC service papers will be more valuable for these in my lifetime. I do not have enough time left on earth to worry if something will be the next "Newman" in a few decades..

That, and I like to wear them, not have them sit in a box; so, the more "valuable" it is, and the more difficult it would be to get parts and bits, the less likely I would be to hang onto it.......

[RRY]

I agree with Larry. A recent RSC service record means so much more to me than any other paper.

[maverick]

Originally Posted by RRY

I agree with Larry. A recent RSC service record means so much more to me than any other paper.

That woud be nice but here in the USA Rolex will not work on vintage watches.

Bob Ridley's invoices are as good or better IHMO. =) maverick

[Beaumont Miller II]

That is interesting that some of you feel that strongly about service papers. That is a perspective that I did not consider. Mav, I agree with you that Bob Ridley's work on vintage watches do carry as much weight as service papers from RSC.

[greekbum]

On a common watch I think RSC service papers are also nice to have but unless they are very recent who would pay extra to have them unless they are part of a big package with lots of extras? Someone else today wrote a rare watch with rare papers will get rare money But a common watch with uncommon papers is it worth almost double?To me no but for the same or a little more ill take it.