How much of a premium to pay for a 3186 versus 3185?

[Mendota]

When pricing out Explorer IIs how much of a premium should there be for the 3186 versus the 3185? If I have two mint condition gems sitting side by side, and the mint 3186 with all boxes and papers goes for $3,750 (using a recent sale as the example) what would a fair price be for a F or newer with a 3185?

My gut says there should be some kind of difference since the 3186 is superior.

Any thoughts are much appreciated!

[George Ab]

Below Larry (Tools) provided a great article on the differences between the 3185 and 3186. http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=30808

The differences for me weren’t a big deal. I just wanted the “no holes”. I just picked up a Near Mint Exp II F Series for $3,200. For an M or V I would say add $500. The 3185 snaps into the hour position darn well so I’m not sure it required an improvement, and I’ve been living quite contently with Rolex’s for years without the Parachrom hairspring. IMO the Explorer II is the best value on the used market of any Rolex sport model.

Movement: 3186
(excerpt from Henk Hoving)
The cal.3186 has exactly the same features as seen on the previous cal.3185, so there is no quickset date feature added as some guessed. The main difference between these calibers is the more precise setting of the 12 positions for the 12-hourhand when switching to another timezone.

The 12 hourhand clicks into the 12 positions without any play, and very precise and smooth, as the fixed positions where the hand clicks into, were moved from the center of the movement into the driving train of the hands, this eliminates the play that the older caliber has.

This resulted into a slightly higher caliber, from 6.4mm to 6.8mm, which resulted into a slightly higher case for the new GMT Master II when compared to the older GMT Master II.

Also, in this new GMT Master is the new, own hairspring fitted, the "Parachrom Bleu". This new Rolex-patented hairspring is very easy to recognize as the spring has a very dark blue shiny color. It consists of an alloy made of Niob (most part), Hafnium and a very small amount other metals not described. This blue color is created because the Niob oxidizes in contact with air and formes a protective layer this way.

In comparison to the regular hairsprings, this new one consists of only non-Ferro materials, and is as such completely insensitive to magnetic fields. Another major advantage is that this new spring is much less sensitive to temperature-variations, the frequency does not vary due to differences in temperature, which results into one of the most accurate mechanical watches you can buy today...

[acce1999]

Originally Posted by Mendota

When pricing out Explorer IIs how much of a premium should there be for the 3186 versus the 3185? If I have two mint condition gems sitting side by side, and the mint 3186 with all boxes and papers goes for $3,750 (using a recent sale as the example) what would a fair price be for a F or newer with a 3185?

My gut says there should be some kind of difference since the 3186 is superior.

Any thoughts are much appreciated!

None, if you ask me. The 3186 is not superior. It is a careful development of the 3185 ensuring inhouse production of the balance spring and a different solution for the hour setting. The 3185 is a great caliber.

This said I have two 3186's.

The good thing about the 3185 is that it is proven during twenty years. The 3186 has been in production for ca 4 years, so the majority of them have still to see their first service, and not until then we will start to get indications on the real life improvements.

Good luck in your choice. The ExII is a wonderful watch!

Best,

A

[buz-lh]

There really shouldn't be any difference in price in my opinion. There has been some serious (and I think misfounded) speculating on GMT's and Explorer II's with the 3186 and I think people have spent money they'll never get back. My 16710 with the 3185 is every bit as accurate as my 116710 with the 3186. I may be proven wrong down the road but I don't think so.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Mendota

When pricing out Explorer IIs how much of a premium should there be for the 3186 versus the 3185? If I have two mint condition gems sitting side by side, and the mint 3186 with all boxes and papers goes for $3,750 (using a recent sale as the example) what would a fair price be for a F or newer with a 3185?

My gut says there should be some kind of difference since the 3186 is superior.

Any thoughts are much appreciated!

Well IMHO anyone paying a premium price for a watch that has a 3186 must be sixpence short of a shilling.And who says the 3186 is superior to the 3185 in accuracy or longevity of life. I would doubt either its main difference is slightly better second time zone setting and thats no big deal.

[Howie]

Originally Posted by padi56

Well IMHO anyone paying a premium price for a watch that has a 3186 must be sixpence short of a shilling.And who says the 3186 is superior to the 3185 in accuracy or longevity of life. I would doubt either its main difference is slightly better second time zone setting and thats no big deal.

How about the people paying a premium for a 'stick font' GMTII vs. roman font, even with the old 3185 movement. Now that's really something!

[Cru Jones]

Originally Posted by padi56

Well IMHO anyone paying a premium price for a watch that has a 3186 must be sixpence short of a shilling.And who says the 3186 is superior to the 3185 in accuracy or longevity of life. I would doubt either its main difference is slightly better second time zone setting and thats no big deal.

Fair enough.

My heart, though, tells me that having the same "guts" as the GMTII-c, as opposed to the older one, has to be worth something.

From a purely emotional standpoint, my new Explorer II being 3186 makes me happy.

It was a big deal to me when I received my watch in March as a present from my wife. She purchased it BNIB from the Rolex boutique in Paris and, it being an M serial, I was concerned that it was sold "as new" when it might have had the 3185 movement....The tests showed it as being 3186 and I had it opened anyway to confirm.

Not very rational, I know....But, important to my heart, nonetheless.

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Howie

How about the people paying a premium for a 'stick font' GMTII vs. roman font, even with the old 3185 movement. Now that's really something!

Likewise its just internet hype to put the price up, the so called error dial is nothing more than a simple font change by Rolex.

[Psmith]

Frankly I don't think there should be any price/value difference between them.



Cheers

[Dan Pierce]

If emotion is more important to you than rationality, then by all means, pay that premium.
dP

[Mendota]

Good answers, guys! This helps considerably. Thanks for all of the input!!

[cujo]

Prices should be very close. Not a price-able difference IMO. Cujo

[Traveler]

IMO the 3186 IS superior to the 3185. Better spring. Better shock resistance. Better accuracy. Better setting the hands. More resistance to magnetism. While maybe not an entirely new movement, it does bring significant improvements and is now made entirely in house by Rolex.

[Tools]

Whether the 3186 has any marginal improvements in "feel" when setting, or if it has any non-measurable (but feel good) benefit from a Rolex made hairspring isn't really the question...

The question was "should there be a premium for the 3186", and the answer is NO, there should not be... just like there isn't a premium for a 3135 over the 3035, or a premium for the 3130 over the 3000... or the 3175 over the 3075, or the - well, you get the point..

Rolex has made changes to their movements within their models since the beginning of time............ it is almost never a reason to pay a premium....

[padi56]

Originally Posted by Traveler

IMO the 3186 IS superior to the 3185. Better spring. Better shock resistance. Better accuracy. Better setting the hands. More resistance to magnetism. While maybe not an entirely new movement, it does bring significant improvements and is now made entirely in house by Rolex.

Now Nivaflex is a alloy used in the mainsprings of most of the high end Swiss watch industry including Rolex and mostly still made by Schwab Feller so not quite 100% yet .

[Puffy]

I would never pay a premium over a 3186.... My Exp II has the 3186 movement but that certainly wasn't the deciding factor when I bought it...

[JJ Irani]

Originally Posted by Mendota

When pricing out Explorer IIs how much of a premium should there be for the 3186 versus the 3185? If I have two mint condition gems sitting side by side, and the mint 3186 with all boxes and papers goes for $3,750 (using a recent sale as the example) what would a fair price be for a F or newer with a 3185?

My gut says there should be some kind of difference since the 3186 is superior.

Any thoughts are much appreciated!

In my own case, I had the same option and the difference I had to fork out was exactly US$350.

JJ

[JJ Irani]

Originally Posted by Cru Jones

Fair enough.

My heart, though, tells me that having the same "guts" as the GMTII-c, as opposed to the older one, has to be worth something.

From a purely emotional standpoint, my new Explorer II being 3186 makes me happy.

It was a big deal to me when I received my watch in March as a present from my wife. She purchased it BNIB from the Rolex boutique in Paris and, it being an M serial, I was concerned that it was sold "as new" when it might have had the 3185 movement....The tests showed it as being 3186 and I had it opened anyway to confirm.

Not very rational, I know....But, important to my heart, nonetheless.

I agree with you, buddy.

Owning my new V-series Exp-II with the newer 3186 movement is worth the extra $$$ that I had to fork over.

JJ

[Mendota]

Originally Posted by JJ Irani

In my own case, I had the same option and the difference I had to fork out was exactly US$350.

JJ

Thanks for the input. I was negotiating on an F serial and the seller came down to just a hair under $3,400 with all boxes and papers, but is holding firm. It has a 3185. I am so torn but I think I'm letting it go. The price just doesn't sing to me.

The recent sales here of 3186s for $3,750 or $3,800 tell me that I should focus my sights on one of those. The watches are newer, plus they have the new movement. For that price difference it seems like a newer one with the 3186 is the better value.

Am I off base with my thinking?

[JJ Irani]

Originally Posted by Mendota

Thanks for the input. I was negotiating on an F serial and the seller came down to just a hair under $3,400 with all boxes and papers, but is holding firm. It has a 3185. I am so torn but I think I'm letting it go. The price just doesn't sing to me.

The recent sales here of 3186s for $3,750 or $3,800 tell me that I should focus my sights on one of those. The watches are newer, plus they have the new movement. For that price difference it seems like a newer one with the 3186 is the better value.

Am I off base with my thinking?

Not at all, buddy. Your thinking is spot-on!! Spend a few extra bucks and go with the newer movement.

JJ

[Mendota]

Awesome! Thanks JJ!

Originally Posted by JJ Irani

Not at all, buddy. Your thinking is spot-on!! Spend a few extra bucks and go with the newer movement.

JJ