My cautionary tale of buying used

[greg788]

I've been looking for a used but reconditioned 15200 (Date) or 16200 DJ. I narrowed it down to the big online players: Demesy, Wingates and Capetown. Following are my experiences with each:

1) Wingates: I bought a 116000 OP from them (couldn't resist the cool dial and the fact that it was only a few months old). It came with a DJ oyster bracelet! I verified this by calling RSC with clasp codes. How a PCL Datejust bracelet got onto this watch (considering the cost) is still a mystery. I sent it back and had them send me a 16200. It had an aftermarket crystal, poor dial printing (fake?) and the clasp was so worn from brushing that the Rolex symbol was all but gone. Plus, they did admit that they do not overhaul the watches (i.e., movement disassembly) but rather just lubricate and regulate any used piece they get in. After returning the 16200, the salesperson was very hostile with me. Apparently I'm too picky (!)

2) Demesy: never bought anything from them but they also admitted that they only lubricate and regulate rather than a full movement disassembly. So I seriously doubt any worn parts get replaced.

3) Capetown: I bought a 15200 from them. It was in great condition and 100% correct. However, it was running about 10 seconds fast per day. I sent it back. They did state that they do a full overhaul on all used pieces, though. I figure this is why they offer a lifetime warranty instead of the 1-2 year norm.

4) Bernard: never bought anything from them but they said they only lubricate and regulate. Also, they DO NOT pressure check. Note that the Wingates, Demesy and Capetown do pressure check.

Going forward, either I'm going to (1) buy new; (2) only buy used but very late model (2 years old or less); or (3) buy used and then pay the $$$ to have a trusted watchmaker like Bob Ridley do a full, correct overhaul.

I hope this has been helpful to anyone considering buying used. I learned the hard way through this (mainly a few hundred dollars in return shipping charges). In searching the forum for feedback on the above online outfits, no mention was ever made of these sorts of issues.

[InVision]

Thanks for the info....

I am lucky, the local AD here has an excellent Rolex Trained Service person. I have know him since 1978.

Bob Ridley has the best rep in the business I believe. I have never used him, but have know a few folks that have.

Mike

[Nicko]

Ever think of buying from a trusted seller here on TRF?

[greg788]

Originally Posted by Nicko

Ever think of buying from a trusted seller here on TRF?

Yes, I bought a 115200 from Oscar recently. I'm simply looking for my second Rolex (again a Date or DJ), but I want to keep the budget at $3000.

[Nicko]

Originally Posted by greg788

Yep, bought my 115200 from Oscar.

[dieseldragon]

I think anyone buying used should have their wits about them and you should have reasonable expectations. If you are buying used and want perfection, why not buy at a price level where the watch can be sent for a full Rolex service (at your expense) and still be value for money?

If you are buying used from a dealer, they are there to make a profit and if they totally stripped every watch that came through their hands, they wouldn't make anything from them. If the watch is running, lubricated, keeping good time and given some sort of warranty, is that not reasonable for a vintage watch? (as long as you have not been told it has been fully overhauled)

Did you not see pics of the over polished clasp before they sent it?

Like buying a second hand car, the dealer will change the oil and filters, but he isn't going to strip the engine down..

Carefully read the terms of sale and buy accordingly.

[greg788]

Originally Posted by dieseldragon

I think anyone buying used should have their wits about them and you should have reasonable expectations. If you are buying used and want perfection, why not buy at a price level where the watch can be sent for a full Rolex service (at your expense) and still be value for money?

If you are buying used from a dealer, they are there to make a profit and if they totally stripped every watch that came through their hands, they wouldn't make anything from them. If the watch is running, lubricated, keeping good time and given some sort of warranty, is that not reasonable for a vintage watch? (as long as you have not been told it has been fully overhauled)

Did you not see pics of the over polished clasp before they sent it?

Like buying a second hand car, the dealer will change the oil and filters, but he isn't going to strip the engine down..

Carefully read the terms of sale and buy accordingly.

I disagree with you. Keep in mind their selling prices are significantly above private sale prices, and maybe even a thousand dollars or more above wholesale prices (yes, I do know what the wholesale prices are for a 15200 and 16200). That margin should easily account for the ca. $400 FULL overhaul and a decent profit. They basically advertise this sort of overhaul in general terms on their websites. It isn't until you start asking the hard questions that you discover the truth.

And regarding the clasp, I was assured that the watch was in mint condition. I asked the salesperson to personally inspect it. It was pronounced pristine. My expectations are high, but then they should be when spending $3000.

[dieseldragon]

You have a point, but whatever you decide, if you buy from a dealer they are there to make profit.

Thats why I take my time before buying and generally try to go private!

[greg788]

Originally Posted by dieseldragon

You have a point, but whatever you decide, if you buy from a dealer they are there to make profit.

Thats why I take my time before buying and generally try to go private!

As Oscar will attest when I bought my 115200 from him, I also take my time. However, I had to learn the hard way to go private (or new or through someone from TRF).

[paverman]

Just another plug for some of the fine sellers here on TRF. I've purchased 5 watches from Mosco (Greg), 2 Pams from Bodybump (Oscar) and a JLC from sale2day (Boris) and have gotten what I've expected each time.

I come to firmly believe what I've heard many times before,---buy the seller.

[nyyankees]

No suprise. Stay away from those folks. My entre into the hobby was the same way. After 5 years now I finally feel like I know what I am doing. Alot of the online dealers are chop shops who will piece together watches, over polish and sell them as if they were like new. Stick to the forums here. Watch for the trusted sellers. Watchnet is a good resource too so that you can gauge seller transactions from the past and make informed decisions.

[scottjb411]

bought and sold to Bernard. From a long time watch enthusiast, would not go elsewhere. Jeff and PJ are two very respectable individuals. Definitely take care of thier customers. I don't doubt the legitimacy of TRF members, but from an average Joe who know's watches go to Bernard.

[greg788]

Originally Posted by nyyankees

No suprise. Stay away from those folks. My entre into the hobby was the same way. After 5 years now I finally feel like I know what I am doing. Alot of the online dealers are chop shops who will piece together watches, over polish and sell them as if they were like new. Stick to the forums here. Watch for the trusted sellers. Watchnet is a good resource too so that you can gauge seller transactions from the past and make informed decisions.

It's funny you mention that. Aside from the sport models, very few used Rolex models from the big online outfits come with papers. I've always suspected they're making "frankenwatches". They like to tell me stories like, "people throw the papers out after the warranty expires" but I don't believe them. Why throw the papers out but keep the box and manuals? Hmmm.

[Speed]

Originally Posted by scottjb411

bought and sold to Bernard. From a long time watch enthusiast, would not go elsewhere. Jeff and PJ are two very respectable individuals. Definitely take care of thier customers. I don't doubt the legitimacy of TRF members, but from an average Joe who know's watches go to Bernard.

I find their prices beyond "strong" as one of our kindly moderators would say. The word I would use is more like unrealistic.

When I began looking at pre-owned Rolexes / did not understand the reputable private seller world, I thought these "name" sites had some leg up. Not so I've found.

[hhh007]

Sorry to hear of all these problems you had greg788. I remember posting here a couple months ago that I believed that many of these larger online pre-owned Rolex dealers were totally misleading people by claiming their watches are "fully serviced" when nothing could be further from the truth. It actually wouldn't surprise me if some of these places do nothing more but open the back to verify authenticity upon purchasing and then give it a quick 5 minute refinish job on the buffing wheel.

[Speed]

+1

[sleddog]

+2....Steer clear of these online auction sites..!!!!
A very low percentage are reputable.......

[sakuraba]

Originally Posted by paverman

---buy the seller.

absolutely spot on!

The right seller makes the difference between a smooth experience and a nightmare purchase.

[mikelprz]

Good post

[chrislkb]

No problem for me here in Singapore with John (my preferred dealer) as he will overhaul the piece if necessary. Bought a S$800 Tudor Rose vintage piece, he offered to do a full service as a pre sales . That's what I called a damn good customer service!

[chrislkb]

Originally Posted by sleddog1000

+2....Steer clear of these online auction sites..!!!!
A very low percentage are reputable.......

3X

[veidtadrian]

Thanks for the analysis!

I think one should also make a distinction between purely online operations and "
physically present" 2nd hand shops (obviously you can inspect it yourself with the latter option).

[HL65]

In regards to buying online from anyone--do your homework and buy the seller. Check them out on watch goodguys and get references. In general--work only with people that are well known and have solid reputations--there are enough of them out there!! Do not risk saving a few bucks to deal with a lesser known seller!!! Proceed with caution!

[Jason71]

I just can't figure-out why anyone would look further than DavidSW here on TRF

(Or.......Of course........One of the other great sellers here on TRF )