Missing numbers

[allegedly]

Hi all, Rob, new member here. Very good site peeps.
I have a question for you. Under what circumstances would the Ident numbers be missing from between the strap lugs on the case?
I am looking to buy an older rolex and one I have been checking out appears to have the numbers removed. The metal is fairly roughly scored, by watch finish standards.
It raises a few questions:
The obvious one, is it a fake?
It is well aged, obvious signs of wear/age. The face is a bit dull, dirty. The fingers are slightly, almost microscopically pitted with age, tarnishing. The crystal (plastic) is slightly dulled with scratches.
So, to my untrained eye, it appears to be in the condition I'd expect a fifty year old watch to be in. If not better, looking at my Seadweller which I've had from new for twenty three years!
I've been told that if a movement had been changed to a different, better case, for repair purposes presumably, the numbers on the case may be erased. Is this possibly the case? (no pun intended).Thanks in advance, Rob

[Cannop]

The serial numbers are the identity of the watch. Doctored/missing/removed numbers should flag up immediately that there is something amiss with the watch. The only real reason I can think of for someone removing the serial numbers would be if the watch had been stolen at some point.

[TimeToGo]

Welcome to the Forum!

Do you have any pictures?

[kyle L]

Sometimes the end pieces rub up against the case, and overtime they start to wear out the numbers. I've seen some watches where the numbers are very faint. Maybe a watchmaker has refinished that area in the past.

[allegedly]

Thanks for the prompt replies guys, very informative and thanks for the welcome. The watch appears genuine in all other respects, it is not an expensive model, a 6427 with engine turned Thunderbird bezel. I'd been monitoring it on ebay for a while and noticed that the serious collectors were not picking it up, at a reasonable price, unlike the other, better models, Date Adjust etc. I have confirmed the purchase as I considered the problem to be as you point out kyle L, but with the benefit of hindsight (!!), the removal looks to be deliberate. Must admit I wish I'd asked on here first.
I wonder if it does have a 'murky' history, the areas I looked at appeared to have been filed, lots of vertical scoring, not deep but effective. I've examined under a strong light and magnifying glass and can see no obvious remains of numbers.
I don't have any pics yet but I will post them as I would value your opinions and don't have the facilities to remove the back, I will be taking the watch to a watch maker to be appraised. I am considering a service and clean up as well. The watch is to be a present for one of my daughters who likes larger, man sized jewelry, especially ones with history, patina. Rob

[HL65]

As Kyle said--on older watches-say 30-40 years old or so-numbers can fade pretty good over time. To me--I would rather have faded numbers visible under loupe than some of the re-engraved cases I have seen out there that look so obviously messed with.

[allegedly]

Thanks Steeler, I have always liked the aged look of the older watches and I guess one of my offspring has similar taste! My own Rolex has a nice, lived in look, between the odd service and it's a part of my identity now!
I will post pics of the areas in question and see what the response is. Must admit, I like it myself and this could be the beginning of a new hobby...if I haven't screwed up on my first attempt!

[eparisini]

I've old (from 1960, it's 50!) watch with ser # partially erased in the middle by the bracelet, I bought it from a well known reseller in my city...
Please post pics

[mike]

Welcome.

As has been stated, if the endlinks are worn it's very possible the serial number/reference number has been worn down over time. I've seen many vintage pieces that have shared this fate to one degree or another.

If, for what ever reason, a movement is recased that case will have it's own unique serial number.

Of course it's possible the numbers were deliberately removed--the reason being obivious, but it sounds like wear on an old piece.

[eparisini]

Mike you know it is almost possible to see the difference: man made, endlinks made

[mike]

Originally Posted by eparisini

Mike you know it is almost possible to see the difference: man made, endlinks made

Yeah. A photo would help.

[eparisini]

Originally Posted by mike

Yeah. A photo would help.

I've no doubut on mine...

[1958trebor]

It depends on how far you want to go. Numbers can be brought back sometimes by acid etching the area or by applied heat, although it would be a high risk event. If there are deliberate scratches which have completely obliterated the numbers it sounds like you've got a problem. I am currently attempting to get my money back from ebay having bought a provable fake. If yours turns out to be nicked you will have to go through the same process and it's a real pain. Question is, how much do you want to know?

[HL65]

Also remember on the older watches from 60's--the bracelet did not fit the way the bracelets from 70's fit--the end link did not match up really well on 7206's causing them to rub on case sides. That is most likely the case with yours! That is also one reason a lot of guys put 93150's on their older watches and keep original in box!

[1958trebor]

Come on Guys, who would score out a body number? What would be the benefit of a watch with no serial number? Working on the principle that you don't buy anything with a story, I would say you need to get this watch validated ASAP. If it is stolen, you may be able to get your money back if you're quick. If you haven't bought it yet, don't walk away, run!

[allegedly]

Thanks for the replies guys. Informative and informed. Wish I'd joined here much sooner. As requested I'm posting some pics for your opinions.
First off, as a test to gauge pic size, my old mate, my seadweller.
I won't apologise for the condition of the watch, I'm a professional diver and it's gone where I have for over twenty years. The face was changed almost ten years ago when returned to Rolex for service and they told me they wouldn't revalidate it as a chronometer as it was losing micro scopic pieces of black enamel and there was a risk it would affect it's accuracy...apparently. So I agreed to a replacement.

[allegedly]

Bit battered, pearls long gone and whole bezel needs attention, not just a new insert. It doesn't click round too well any more. But it's a part of me now.

[allegedly]

Gas escape valve, as I'm sure you know!

[allegedly]

These are pics of the piece advertised as 6427 Rolex Oyster Royal with engine turned Thunderbird bevel. Opinions?

[slcbbrown]

My limited experience with Rolex (have several older models) is that the numbers are sometimes very faint and have to be read with a loupe. However, I see some on ebay that have the look of having been worked over with a screw driver to obscure the serial numbers.

That screw driver look is not subtle and the only explanation is theft. The gentle wear and tear from older style bracelets is not the same look, at all.

[Cannop]

Nice "tool" Sea Dweller - dont see too many that have been used for their original purpose!

[allegedly]

Thanks Cannop, yes, it's had a hard life, hell you want to see me!! Now that I'm on the surface most of the time, perhaps it's about time I fixed a few things. Oh, yes, I had the links changed about eight years ago on a visit to Gibraltar as they were very loose but the clasp was still ok then. Didn't think to ask for the old ones back though.
slcbbrown, thanks for the insight. The metal is certainly scored but I'm not knowledgeable enough to say if it's natural wear or deliberate removal. Maybe one of the more experienced members could throw some light on the subject?
I've not had it round to a watchmaker yet, I live in the wilds of the far north west of Scotland, next to Ben Nevis so not easy. Anyone recommend a good one up here?
Any info or guidance on this model would be welcome as without the numbers or the back off, I'm a bit in the dark at the moment.
Regards
Rob

[allegedly]

Thanks Cannop, yes, it's had a hard life, hell you want to see me!! Now that I'm on the surface most of the time, perhaps it's about time I fixed a few things. Oh, yes, I had the links changed about eight years ago on a visit to Gibraltar as they were very loose but the clasp was still ok then. Didn't think to ask for the old ones back though.
slcbbrown, thanks for the insight. The metal is certainly scored but I'm not knowledgeable enough to say if it's natural wear or deliberate removal. Maybe one of the more experienced members could throw some light on the subject?
I've not had it round to a watchmaker yet, I live in the wilds of the far north west of Scotland, next to Ben Nevis so not easy. Anyone recommend a good one up here?
Any info or guidance on this model would be welcome as without the numbers or the back off, I'm a bit in the dark at the moment.
Regards
Rob

[allegedly]

Any input on this watch guys? I'm thinking of getting the dial and hands cleaned and was wondering how available a replacement crystal/plastic is? I want to retain the 'patina' of age.
I've done research on it but as I mentioned in my last post, any info or guidance from the more knowledgeable members will be very welcome.
Cheers
Rob

[HL65]

Rob-it is very difficult to explain without really knowing history. I could not make a comment without looking at it under a loupe. The scratches don't appear to be in a consistent pattern of intentional scratches IMHO. The numbers as stated can be faint based upon the bracelet and ends that were on it--could have worn it down over time. I honestly have no clue!!! Get her cleaned up--get a period correct crystal and put a nice strap on it wear it! Regards from your neighbor!

[allegedly]

Thanks steeler, your comments make sense. From the pics would you say it was the genuine article? I've looked all over the web and only found one other photo of a 6427 and it was a poor quality pic so I couldn't really make out details so it's very difficult to say if mine is genuine or not.
As I mentioned, it appears well aged and I think that's shown in my pics.
You say get a period correct crystal, the one fitted is not the right one? How should it look? I thought it only needed a polish! Just goes to show how little I know and how much I have to learn!!
Still trying to decide which watchmaker to send it to but as it's a new thing for me, I don't know a good one. And to be honest, having checked out on here, I'm still a bit confused as to who to choose.
By the way, I mentioned I live very near to Glenfinnan here in Scotland, so I've included a pic of the view of the Loch.

[HL65]

Very cool!!!!!

[allegedly]

Glad you like it. In order to keep in the vein of the thread, my old seadweller is on my left wrist, as ever! And as for cool, yes, it was feckin freezing buts that Scotland for you in the winter. Snow then was not as good as it is now, just getting my skiis ready for a bit of fun.
The tall edifice in the background is the monument to Bonny Prince Charlie, shows up well on Google earth, I think.
Had a look at some very good posts on here regarding acrylic crystals and noticed the ones with the flatter sides and beveled edges. Do you think that's more in date with my 6427? I had the crystal off and gave it a clean after reading how to on here. It came up very nice but I noticed in certain lights there's a 'crazing pattern' within it so clearly it needs to be changed. Would you recommend I go with the bevelled edge or the slightly curved one as fitted?
Found some after market ones on ebay, 25-12 I think they were, the 6427 was listed below as taking this example. In your opinion, is it okay to go down that route, the after market ones? I've no idea how available genuine ones are. As long as they're not silly money I don't mind laying out a bit more if they're better or maintain an obvious 'genuine' status for the watch.
Sorry to 'bombard' you with questions but I'm really getting in to this stuff, surprising for some one like me, a 'big hammer and spanner' user! Especially at my not so tender years! Regards Rob