Grand Seiko quartz: is it overrated?

[mgsooner]

Before you start picking up rocks, hear me out. I posed this question elsewhere but figured this would be a better place to get some good discussion on this going.

Firstly, let me state this: I agree that Grand Seiko makes incredibly beautiful watches that are finished to an impeccable standard. When looking at competitors in the "high accuracy quartz" realm such as Longines and Citizen, I personally feel Grand Seiko's watches absolutely smash them to bits from an aesthetic standpoint.

That being said, what about the movement inside? When looking at the movement itself, how much actual value are you getting with the purchase of a GS quartz watch? Looking at the quartz movements of the two aforementioned competitors, Longines and Citizen, the specs of their quartz movements seem to be comparable or even superior in some regards. While the price point of a Citizen Chronomaster is somewhat comparable to the price point of a GS quartz, the price point of a Longines VHP is much lower (roughly 1/3 of that of a GS).

Therefore, what are you paying 3x more for the GS versus the Longines? Case finishing? Hands-on craftsmanship? Or is the GS quartz movement itself actually superior to that of the Longines (or the Citizen)?

I've been thinking about this as this perception has seemingly developed in WIS circles that the GS 9f is the best quartz movement in the world, and by a decent margin. This is of course exempting things like the Journe Elegante which is in a different stratosphere when it comes to price. I am the type to become a bit skeptical when everyone seems to come to believe the same thing. This belief seems to have been fed by watch-related media outlets and "content creators," who seem to be in lock step in pushing this narrative. What I'm ultimately trying to get at is: is the Grand Seiko 9f movement truly superior to the HAQ movements found inside of a Longines, which comes in a package that is 1/3 of the cost? Or is the "value" you're getting with a GS more about the case finishing and aesthetic considerations? Has GS just engaged in a bit of clever marketing and used "influencers" in the watch world to assist in that effort?

[Oyster Sauce]

I think this is a well-written and -intended post; looking forward to hearing from those more knowledgable about high accuracy quartz movements. BTW, I agree that the GS quartz cases are beautiful; in fact, I like many of them better than their automatic cases!

[Old Expat Beast]

I feel like the value is there. I paid around US$1,800 for mine (two pics below) from an AD in Japan, and if it goes the suggested 50 years without a service, then it will have paid for itself in service fees alone. That's not particularly big "if" either; I have two HAQ Seikos well into their 40s that have likely never been serviced and are still keeping excellent time. See this thread for more on those, and an ongoing time test.)

As for the 9F build quality, it looks pretty good to me, both in articles like Jack Forster's old Sexy Robot piece from six years ago, and in this leaflet that I got with my watch, which I still wear most days, back in 2018.

[mgsooner]

Can anyone speak to the build quality of the 9f vs Citizen’s quartz movements as well as Longines? I know that the 9f is billed as being entirely metal. Is that true of the others? I did have a good response on IG that the 9f is serviceable to a degree that the others are not. If that is accurate that is a big point in favor of GS.

By the way, part of my motivation in drilling down here is that I am very seriously considering a 9f as my next purchase.

[Hub6152]

If I may chip in here - Longines is a lower tier brand that has automated manufacturing processes with many parts made in Asia and merely assembled in CH just to get the Swiss Made moniker. GS are a highly prestigious company with a reputation for the highest quality all in house and largely hand finished manufacture.

That the Longines VHF is super accurate is irrelevant. The GS is infinitely the better watch even if only judging by the hand finished hour markers on the dial or the Zaratsu hand polished cases. I suspect serviceability of the movement is also irrelevant since it will most likely outlive you anyway.

[mgsooner]

Originally Posted by Hub6152

If I may chip in here - Longines is a lower tier brand that has automated manufacturing processes with many parts made in Asia and merely assembled in CH just to get the Swiss Made moniker. GS are a highly prestigious company with a reputation for the highest quality all in house and largely hand finished manufacture.

That the Longines VHF is super accurate is irrelevant. The GS is infinitely the better watch even if only judging by the hand finished hour markers on the dial or the Zaratsu hand polished cases. I suspect serviceability of the movement is also irrelevant since it will most likely outlive you anyway.

Oh, no doubt that GS is on a different playing field than Longines. I guess what I’m most curious about is the differences in the materials/construction of the movements. Obviously GS case construction and finishing blows them out of the water. As far as the serviceability aspect, I like the idea of the 9f being serviceable so that the watch carries on after I’m long gone - even if it’s in the possession of a stranger.

[Hub6152]

Originally Posted by mgsooner

Oh, no doubt that GS is on a different playing field than Longines. I guess what I’m most curious about is the differences in the materials/construction of the movements. Obviously GS case construction and finishing blows them out of the water. As far as the serviceability aspect, I like the idea of the 9f being serviceable so that the watch carries on after I’m long gone - even if it’s in the possession of a stranger.

Future serviceability would mostly depend on the availability of spare parts because anything can be repaired or replaced if necessary and doubtless GS will be around for many years to come. A Quartz GS is no less quality than a mechanical GS. The materials used would be standard watchmaking - Patek Philippe movement plates are all made of rhodium plated brass just as are Longines movements - the difference in quality isn’t in the materials but how they are used and finished.

I wouldn’t base my purchasing decisions on the possibility of something long after I’m gone - enjoy the here and now because life is very short - too short not to!!

[TimeAZ]

I was looking to add a HAQ and finally decided on the SBGN005. It is absolutely magnificent, one of my favorites, right up there with the Explorer 1.

First, I had originally bought the Longines VHP. Wound up selling it. Sure, it's accurate, and I guess it has an interesting feature with the embedded annual calendar (which I personally dislike because it has to be factory-set by Swatch if your battery dies and you don't replace it in time), but overall I absolutely hated the VHP. The case was clunky, thick, and ugly, the crown guards really annoyed me. For a watch that has no screw-down crown and 50m water resistance, I dont get the styling of those crown guards, they're big, tacky and obnoxious. I bought the white dial version. I found the black and blue versions of the VHP to be very poorly legible, terrible contrast with the hands. The hands feel cheap, dull, basically painted plastic. The hour markers are cheap. Sometimes I felt like the second hand wasn't perfectly hitting the markers. I just couldn't stand it. The bracelet was also bulky with a terrible clasp. It feels like a $300 watch, being sold for $1000, just doesn't seem worth the price of admission. I've also read some people who reported that they had problems with the movement. It seems like a mass-produced product.

The GS 9F gmt quartz is in a whole different league. We are talking about a watch that is completely created in-house, from the growth and regulation of the quartz crystal, to just about every component in its construction, which is assembled and tested by TWO different watch makers by hand. Not to mention an incredible dial. I LOVE the dial. It looks black in certain lights, and metallic sunburst blue in others, and the hour markers are finished to absolute perfection, offer ample contrast as they sing in the light, even in poorly lit conditions. The movement itself is incredible. Mine is currently +1 sec after last setting it in October last year. It always hits the second markers spot on, and has a nice satisfying step this is actually comprised of two microscopic steps, so you have a really tightly controlled and precise action on the second hand. The caliber allows for greater torque to support heavier hands, so you get a quality metal construction on the hour, minute, and seconds hands, and this is clearly evident any time you look down at the dial and see those sharply finished edges. The same polishing goes into them as with GS higher watches. Same thing for the markers and applied logo. It's beautiful. The dial catches the light and reflects it beautifully, so the legibility is fantastic. The case dimension is also great. 39mm, very wearable lug-to-lug and something like 11 mm thick. The crown-guards are just right, not to big, and the crown screws in for water resistance of 100m. The GMT function is a nice bonus. I love its sporty appearance.

My GS 9F is something I can just pick-up-and-go, not having to worry or set its time, and it's just a joy to have that as an option in the collection. With a 50 year service interval I think this watch will outlast me. I only need to change the battery once every 3 years. I can definitely live with that.

The only downside to the GS is the bracelet and clasp. It uses these really cheap, tiny screws and pins to affix to the links. The clasp is also a little small for my liking, and no micro-adjust. I put my GS on an after-market 19mm Cordura and love it in this set-up.

[swish77]

Maybe it’s just me, but I’ve never purchased a watch because of the movement and how it’s constructed. Sure, you want it to be well made and accurate, but the most important aspect for me is always aesthetics. Dial, case, and fit and finish on the wrist. Does it look beautiful/cool and is it comfortable? After that, everything else is secondary.

Some watches are so beautiful to look at I wouldn’t care if it had a rubber band and paper clip to keep it going. That’s the case with many GS watches. I wouldn’t say the same about Longines, although they do make some handsome watches.

[mattmartin]

The Longines vhp uses an Eta thermoline caliber. It is robot assembled and has no finishing at all. It has one small bridge holding the jewels for the upper half of the wheel train and rotor. Robot assembled. However, they are serviceable and have a good long life due to having jewels and using good modern lubricants. Any good watchmaker could service it year after year after year, but they might encourage you to simply replace it if there was an problem. It looks like a regular quartz movement like you would see in a Tag, or a Victorinox or any watch with “swiss movt” on the dial. They are excellent movements made with a focus on utility. Very accurate and durable.

The 9F is built more like a fine automatic. It has large bridges that are thick and show a high level of fine finishing, although machine applied. It has all of the same durability and long life, and precision as the thermoline, but with a great attention to the way it looks. It is made and assembled like a mechanical watch.

[MickCollins1916]

To be honest, while you raise an interesting question, I didn’t overthink this particular purchase (for the second time, since I foolishly sold it once).

It’s a beautifully-finished, highly accurate, comfortable, and functional watch from a brand I respect and value. I don’t know whether it’s overrated or not, but I rate it highly, so that was good enough for me to pull the trigger.

[stockae92]

If you simply question "if its worth base on function", then I say "No, not at all". Casio / Timex would comes to mind when its money vs functionality.

But GS 9F is really more than just telling time. Its quite well engineered and thought out. And you know you are not paying for "just another quartz movement". You need to ask the question is "this is good enough for you or not".

BTW, I changed the battery on my GS 9F on my own, and I have chance to enjoy the decorated movement itself.

Another, GS is not the only high quality quartz game from Japan, I am talking about high quality, not just high accuracy.

Citizen has been making Chronomaster and they are worthy competitor. Their case, dial and hand finish is on par with what GS is doing. GS does have more variety. And their movement has eco-drive, perpetual cal, jump hour setting, and +/- 5 sec a year accuracy for the regular model.

Oh wait, where was I? Oh right, GS quartz. Yes, you do have to pay for the GS case, dial and hands finish, but the movement is well executed. And I would gladly take it over watches at similar price point with ETA automatic movement.

[mgsooner]

Fantastic posts guys. Really, great information. At this point I think it's fair to say the answer to the question I posed is a no. I'm currently crushing hard on the SBGP015. Trying to hold out a bit. We'll see how long I'm able to do so.

[Alter Egon]

I have both GS 9F ( x3 ) and Citizen Chronomaster ( x2 ) - they both are extremely well finished but GS wins by a small margin, especially with hands and indexes.
In terms of functionality I would probably place Citizens A660/A060 movements over GS 9F82/62 due to better accuracy, independent hour hand, perpetual calendar and better index hitting, but newer 9F85/86 adds independent hour hand.
Both movements are robust and beautifully decorated, you can see 9F in few GS models with transparent caseback and it looks as good as in mechanical versions, Citizen on the other hand gives you more sporty models, some made of titanium and all treated with really scratch-proof Duratect coating.
Whichever you choose you will not be disappointed.

[Raku]

First of all great thread, I always enjoy reading these technical discussions, unfortunately they are getting more and more rare.

I don't think you can compare the Longines L288 VHP to the GS 9F.

Here is why the GS is in another league:
- assembled by hand (unlike the ETA one build by machines)
- has full gear train
- has 9 jewels (vs zero in the ETA)
- has backlash adjustment and temperature regulation
- has instant date adjustment

Speaking about the watches as a package, GS is using the same case, dial, hands and indices finishing in all their watches, regardless of the movement, while the Swatch group is using cases, bracelets and straps sourced in the far east, in order to keep the price down.
We all know what Swiss Made on those watches really means.

I have also been considering a GS quartz, it's so practical, you don't need to worry about paying a considerable amount to service it and I believe the GS boutique will change the battery for free.

[mattmartin]

After further review, I have discovered that the Longines does not use an eta thermoline movement. The eta is jeweled and thermocompensated; the Longines is not jeweled. This means one key distinction between the 9F and Longines is the presence of jeweled bearings to support the wheel pivots and rotor, in the 9F. Not having these elements really makes it hard to compare the 9F to the Longines because the 9F has a much better build if long term life is a factor.

[brandrea]

Originally Posted by swish77

Maybe it’s just me, but I’ve never purchased a watch because of the movement and how it’s constructed. Sure, you want it to be well made and accurate, but the most important aspect for me is always aesthetics. Dial, case, and fit and finish on the wrist. Does it look beautiful/cool and is it comfortable? After that, everything else is secondary.

Some watches are so beautiful to look at I wouldn’t care if it had a rubber band and paper clip to keep it going. That’s the case with many GS watches. I wouldn’t say the same about Longines, although they do make some handsome watches.

Same here Aaron I want a watch with a robust movement that keeps decent time. The other aesthetics are more important to me including the much overlooked clasp and bracelet design.