How to stop the flipping scourge

[teck21]

It is a problem. Everybody knows that.

There’s no blame to be assigned for doing it because that’s just rational human behaviour, the chance for a quick buck.

But every watch that gets taken away from an AD purely for the sole purpose of selling again without adding value deprives another genuine customer of a chance of it from an AD, that is also surely not in doubt.

What is it you think Rolex and/or ADs can do, in conjunction or not, to ensure as few watches as possible go to these opportunistic scalpers?

As it stands, Rolex tries to ‘dissuade’ its ADs from funnelling directly to greys (via the threat of dealership revocation), and to individual flippers (via black listing of individuals).

This discussion is not about Rolex increasing supply to resolve the demand issues, or demand supply issues in general, such as whether demand is ‘real or fake’.

The market situation is what it is, littered with opportunities for scalpers to profit.

In this light, what else can, or should Rolex/ ADs do?

Curious as to people’s views.

Mine are straightforward. Make sure everybody pays ‘market’ price via relationship building/bundling (even though Rolex frowns on outright binding), but I understand that’s not a popular view, and it also has its drawbacks.

What solutions would some of you propose?

Edit:
For the purpose of this particular discussion, flipping refers to the buying of a popular reference at an AD with little or no intention of being the end user, but for monetary profit.


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[peterpl]

You cant.

When it comes to $$$$$ people will do anything to make a buck.

Money is very very very powerful whether you like it or not and when it comes to $$$ well it makes ppl do crazy things. Flipping watches is nothing.

Thats facts!

[teck21]

Originally Posted by peterpl

You cant.

When it comes to $$$$$ people will do anything to make a buck.

Money is very very very powerful whether you like it or not and when it comes to $$$ well it makes ppl do crazy things. Flipping watches is nothing.

Thats facts!

I agree almost entirely, it is a given that elimination is impossible, but would there be anything else they could do to reduce the opportunities for flippers?

I’ve thought about it, and short of forcing everyone to pay market price, one way or another, I cannot see another other solution.

As you said, human ingenuity knows no bounds when there’s a chance to make money.

As the saying goes, show me the incentive and I’ll show you the outcome.

I’m proposing removing the incentive.


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[charlesheung]

It’s pretty simple, just give a reason why do u think u can stop people for making money.

[mooty]

it is very hard to stop.
if I offered you $100k on a new 116500LN, are you really going to turn me down?
how about $60k for a pepsi?
of course I am using some extremely numbers but EVERYTHING has a price, no one can stop "flipping"


I am NOT happy with that either. but I just don't think it can be stopped.

[KathleenL]

Thank goodness I have the one and only Rolex that I want. I cannot "build a relationship" with an AD by buying a bunch of jewelry from him/her because my brother-in-law is a Certified Master Bench Jeweler. (He's independent - doesn't work for any particular jewelry store.) Any gold or diamond jewelry that I want (and I have wanted a lot) is custom made for me. I feel incredibly lucky to have gotten the exact watch that I wanted, but I guess Lady Datejust watches aren't in great demand.

[seand442]

I’m no longer buying the bit about Rolex being against flipping and selling to greys. They are more than enough ways they could have done something, but they haven’t. They've stuck to their demand issue comment and that is all well and good, but when you can’t find a single SS watch over a vast area, ie. statewide, you start to figure out they don’t really care after all.

[copperjohn]

When people buy it they own it. And then they can sell it. This ain’t about the flippers. Flipping is different. It’s about people that use Rolex as an investment.

Some people want to own a BLRO. And some want to buy it at the AD for $9500 and sell it for $22,000. It’s the nature of the beast. Can it be stopped? It can be by you as an individual who opts to not buy from them. But some will buy if they get a price they like. Again, nature of the beast.

But a global protocol to prevent it? No.

[Danny83]

This wont stop until Rolex supplies their Authorized with enough watches to fill the display. Rolex did this to themselves. Ads dont want you to flip but at the same time most of them will make you bundle, so theoretically they condone flipping. Then if there is too much supply deep discounts happen so thats over with.

[teck21]

Originally Posted by seand442

I’m no longer buying the bit about Rolex being against flipping and selling to greys. They are more than enough ways they could have done something, but they haven’t. They've stuck to their demand issue comment and that is all well and good, but when you can’t find a single SS watch over a vast area, ie. statewide, you start to figure out they don’t really care after all.

You could read it that way. I see it as being illustrative of the incredible demand supply imbalance at ADs, compounded by flippers.

Anyway this discussion presupposes that Rolex does indeed care and is trying.

Question would be what else they can do besides what they already are doing.


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[Oystersteel92]

Rolex, at it's heart, is a very conservative company. You can see it in the slow evolution of their designs, which is part of the appeal. The immediate answer when the market price is much higher than the retail price is to raise the retail price. Rolex has made it clear they're not going to increase production in any significant fashion, appear unwilling to significantly raise prices, and it feels like they're trying to wait out the current demand cycle.

[teck21]

Originally Posted by Oystersteel92

Rolex, at it's heart, is a very conservative company. You can see it in the slow evolution of their designs, which is part of the appeal. The immediate answer when the market price is much higher than the retail price is to raise the retail price. Rolex has made it clear they're not going to increase production in any significant fashion, appear unwilling to significantly raise prices, and it feels like they're trying to wait out the current demand cycle.

Most certainly, which is why they are not feeding this frenzy with greater supply.

So it’s currently a flipper’s paradise.

What can they do? The threat of being blacklisted by an AD works for sure, even if there are people who deny that it happens, but it does not seem a sufficient deterrent based on how many bnib are still finding their way to the resale market.

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[seand442]

And that’s exactly it. What is Rolex really doing about, not just what they put out in a PR release. This hasn’t been a recent issue for them. If the majority of their displays are empty or only have 2 or 3 unpopular models, which based on personal experience as well as stories of others who have visited, seems to be the case, where is the inventory? If an AD has already sold it, that’s on them. They chose to sell to a known customer or flipper before the watch could be put in a case. Known customer, fine, but they can sell multiple pieces to a grey/flipper, make their money, and then tell the regular Joe who walks in later how it’s a demand issue and he’ll put him on the “list.” When you see multiple IG pages with many multiple brand new popular models, I don’t see it as a demand issue. It’s simply a greed issue. But hey, that’s capitalism.

Originally Posted by teck21

You could read it that way. I see it as being illustrative of the incredible demand supply imbalance at ADs, compounded by flippers.
Anyway this discussion presupposes that Rolex does indeed care and is trying.
Question would be what else they can do besides what they already are doing.
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[Timetracker]

Originally Posted by teck21

You could read it that way. I see it as being illustrative of the incredible demand supply imbalance at ADs, compounded by flippers.

Anyway this discussion presupposes that Rolex does indeed care and is trying.

Question would be what else they can do besides what they already are doing.


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But they really don’t, and so they’re not……

[cerendigit]

Reduce the demand.


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[Tanalasta]

Link the warranty to original owner only.

Mandate the owners name be written onto the warranty card at point of sale. Each AD will usually keep a copy for their own records anyway.

Spot audits
Repurchase of grey market watches to track point of sale and original owner


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[Laostuh]

In a perfect world. It would be 1st come 1st serve with spending history not even a question.

High demand watch? Get put on an actual wait list, and when said watch is ready go down the list 1 by 1.

Will it happen? Of course not.

[csaltphoto]

They aren't "flippers" to AD's. They are "great customers". Yeah sure, there are few who score lucky allocations and deals and immediately sell them. But plenty are steady customers who buy Hundreds of thousands of dollars of Rolexes per year. Yeah, it's their biz or side hustle but hard to compete with someone who is willing to do biz at that level with someone who is in biz to stay in biz.

[norcalgt3]

Very easy IMO. Ask original buyers to randomly bring in select watches within 1 week's notice to nearest or original ADs for serial number verification. These checks stop after 3 years.

Second hand buyers would think twice for signing up for that hassle to ship back to seller.

[LA_LEC]

Ditch the totally unrealistic MSRP. The only reason they are being seen as an "investment" or flipped is that MSRP.

Triple it then if they don't sell the AD can always give a discount to move merchandise.

[Mendota]

Originally Posted by KathleenL

Thank goodness I have the one and only Rolex that I want. I cannot "build a relationship" with an AD by buying a bunch of jewelry from him/her because my brother-in-law is a Certified Master Bench Jeweler. (He's independent - doesn't work for any particular jewelry store.) Any gold or diamond jewelry that I want (and I have wanted a lot) is custom made for me. I feel incredibly lucky to have gotten the exact watch that I wanted, but I guess Lady Datejust watches aren't in great demand.

I'm in a similar situation. My wife and I have a diamond broker in Chicago that we have worked with since 2004. She's incredible. She custom makes pieces for us, anything we want. I only pay the spot price for the metal, wholesale cost for any stones, and then I just pay her for her time. I can show her anything and she will make it for us. The mark up on jewelry is absolutely unbelievable.

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[teck21]

Originally Posted by Tanalasta

Link the warranty to original owner only.

Mandate the owners name be written onto the warranty card at point of sale. Each AD will usually keep a copy for their own records anyway.

Spot audits
Repurchase of grey market watches to track point of sale and original owner


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The warranty proposition may take some heat off demand so it probably will help.

Are there legal impediments to implementation?

Would the secondary market simply adapt to being warranty-less?

There is already some element of tracking resale watches and tracing them to individual names.

What you propose is an extension of such action, it may already be happening. We don’t know, but increasing the scope of such activity may help.


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[Son Goku]

I genuinely question how real the current "market" prices actually are. I don't doubt that there are select few individuals spending almost $40k on a SS Daytona, but I think it's exactly that a FEW individuals.

What's beyond apparent from YouTube and Social Media is that these pieces are traded almost daily between grey dealers themselves. I think this isn't discussed enough as a source of increasing "market" prices.

[teck21]

Originally Posted by Laostuh

In a perfect world. It would be 1st come 1st serve with spending history not even a question.

High demand watch? Get put on an actual wait list, and when said watch is ready go down the list 1 by 1.

Will it happen? Of course not.

That’s the worst way to allocate high demand luxury items.

In a first come first serve system, every single watch will go to the profit seekers because they will beat you to the watch every single time.


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[rallyx]

If this is about basic life necessities, yes, stop the price gouging for sure. Rolex is a luxury watch, and this is a first world problem. I couldn't care less if some people can't buy a watch at RRP. Likewise, I couldn't care less if a brand has to heavily discount their watches just to get customers to buy. I really don't see a point in trying to impose BS and AOC's equitable values on the luxury watch market.

[teck21]

Originally Posted by norcalgt3

Very easy IMO. Ask original buyers to randomly bring in select watches within 1 week's notice to nearest or original ADs for serial number verification. These checks stop after 3 years.

Second hand buyers would think twice for signing up for that hassle to ship back to seller.

Interesting idea, but I’m not sure how the large number of extremely busy hnw Rolex buyers would take to this sort of requirement.

And this segment is ultimately the cornerstone of every luxury proposition.


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[Mendota]

Originally Posted by Timetracker

But they really don’t, and so they’re not……

But they are. They've been doing serial number tracing for over a year now. It has been written about in multiple watch magazines and journals over the last year.

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[teck21]

Originally Posted by rallyx

If this is about basic life necessities, yes, stop the price gouging for sure. Rolex is a luxury watch, and this is a first world problem. I couldn't care less if some people can't buy a watch at RRP. Likewise, I couldn't care less if a brand has to heavily discount their watches just to get customers to buy. I really don't see a point in trying to impose BS and AOC's equitable values on the luxury watch market.

I don’t either. There should be no limits on the inequality of distribution of luxury products as opposed to say, access to drinking water.

Which is why I propose making everybody pay through the nose, at an AD or a grey.

But for a luxury brand, excessive flipping does damage the brand for multiple reasons.


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[RealMadrid1988]

Originally Posted by norcalgt3

Very easy IMO. Ask original buyers to randomly bring in select watches within 1 week's notice to nearest or original ADs for serial number verification. These checks stop after 3 years.

Second hand buyers would think twice for signing up for that hassle to ship back to seller.

Huh? I thought you were going to say that if the buyer doesn’t, they get blacklisted. But instead it seems like you’re suggesting they be “required” to? That’s nonsensical. No AD has the right to require you to visit their store (or any store) to see a watch they sold you.

[rallyx]

Originally Posted by teck21

I don’t either. There should be no limits on the inequality of distribution of luxury products as opposed to say, access to drinking water.

Which is why I propose making everybody pay through the nose, at an AD or a grey.