Journe vs gronefeld

[Ilushka85]

Trying to decide between two watches for my next watch. Looking for opinions and help.

Fp journe bleu

Gronefeld 1918 remontaire


And go....

[PJ S]

All the Gronefeld Remontoires are now sold, unless you’re looking at a pre-owned one or reserved allocation slot, with final deliveries in 18 months time or a bit more.
As different as the Chronometre Bleu is, with its dial and case material, the Remontoire is a much nicer watch, especially if you’re paying over retail for the CB.
If you’re lucky to get a slot for the Remontoire, then you may still have time to choose a bespoke dial colour and guilloché pattern.

Might you take a bit of a punt at the Remontoire Only Watch next month?

If you haven’t already, get yourself over to Manfredi and/or Cellini’s, and try on the Rementoire, to make sure it’s all you imagine/expect.

[bigfatpauli]

Why does everyone keep thinking FPJ is so good? I just don't get their marketing prowess. It's just another mass produced watch. I know, I know, "But Pauli, they only make like 2000 watches a year!" (or whatever production number you are going to quote). It's still a 99% machine made product, I don't care how few they sell. I would look at JLC over FPJ any day of the week. Grönefeld is an actually interesting brand.

[watchucallit]

I own the FPJ CS and a Gronefeld Rementoire and I wear the Gronefeld often but rarely the FPJ... Just my own preference.

How do you know they are sold out? They still have them listed as being available on their website. I have been considering a Parallax Tourbillon ....

[BigAppleBill]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Why does everyone keep thinking FPJ is so good? I just don't get their marketing prowess. It's just another mass produced watch. I know, I know, "But Pauli, they only make like 2000 watches a year!" (or whatever production number you are going to quote). It's still a 99% machine made product, I don't care how few they sell. I would look at JLC over FPJ any day of the week. Grönefeld is an actually interesting brand.

I happen to love the look, feel and build quality of FPJ. What was it about an FPJ model that you didn’t like when it was on your wrist? Just genuinely curious to know what you didn’t like. Thx.

[Ilushka85]

My issue is buying a gronefeld at retail is unknown resale and the two with bespoke dials I have seen for sale have sold well below... while the cs bleu is selling above retail and seems to be climbing.

I move in and out of watches a lot so would like to be able to get out if I can without losing my ass.

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by watchucallit

I own the FPJ CS and a Gronefeld Rementoire and I wear the Gronefeld often but rarely the FPJ... Just my own preference.

How do you know they are sold out? They still have them listed as being available on their website. I have been considering a Parallax Tourbillon ....

The Remontoire is a 188 pieces production, and, AFAIK, the order book is now closed.
Doesn’t mean ADs haven’t bought a couple for their own inventory in what colour/dial version they think will have the widest appeal, or what Gronefeld could supply them with sooner rather than later.
The watch has been available to order since its introduction in 2016.

[PJ S]

Originally Posted by Ilushka85

My issue is buying a gronefeld at retail is unknown resale and the two with bespoke dials I have seen for sale have sold well below... while the cs bleu is selling above retail and seems to be climbing.

I move in and out of watches a lot so would like to be able to get out if I can without losing my ass.

Then the answer is starring you right in the face… so much for needing our help or input.

[Ilushka85]

Yes but the question is if you think prices will stabilize and come up on the gronefeld like they did on the fpj

[GreenLantern]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Why does everyone keep thinking FPJ is so good? I just don't get their marketing prowess. It's just another mass produced watch. I know, I know, "But Pauli, they only make like 2000 watches a year!" (or whatever production number you are going to quote). It's still a 99% machine made product, I don't care how few they sell. I would look at JLC over FPJ any day of the week. Grönefeld is an actually interesting brand.

They make <700 per year.

That's significantly less than 2000/yr which already is a lot less than most.

[GB-man]

Hating on FPJ for being mass produced is beyond fawkt.

[tom2517]

Originally Posted by PJ S

Then the answer is starring you right in the face… so much for needing our help or input.

Yeah second hand value is a concern, go Journe.

[benlee]

Originally Posted by Ilushka85

My issue is buying a gronefeld at retail is unknown resale and the two with bespoke dials I have seen for sale have sold well below... while the cs bleu is selling above retail and seems to be climbing.

I move in and out of watches a lot so would like to be able to get out if I can without losing my ass.

I have ordered a Gronefeld remontaire because it's such a beautiful watch. That said, my advice is don't bother with indies in general if resale and value retention is important. They are unpredictable and often horrid because there is such a small market demand. Stick to AP / PP / Rolex popular models if resale is important.

[GreenLantern]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Hating on FPJ for being mass produced is beyond fawkt.

Indeed!

[bigfatpauli]

Originally Posted by BigAppleBill

I happen to love the look, feel and build quality of FPJ. What was it about an FPJ model that you didn’t like when it was on your wrist? Just genuinely curious to know what you didn’t like. Thx.

I don't want to take anything away from anyone that owns one and loves it. They are certainly one of the "it" watches right now.

In person they are fine but I don't care for the company and their philosophy from the top down. I also don't care for their manufacturing process.

[bigfatpauli]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

They make <700 per year.

That's significantly less than 2000/yr which already is a lot less than most.

Let me rephrase what I wrote for you...

Why does everyone keep thinking FPJ is so good? I just don't get their marketing prowess. It's just another mass produced watch. I know, I know, "But Pauli, they only make like 2 watches a year!" (or whatever production number you are going to quote). It's still a 99% machine made product, I don't care how few they sell. I would look at JLC over FPJ any day of the week. Grönefeld is an actually interesting brand.

I hope that's better.

My point was that production numbers have no impact on whether or not their product is likeable to me. Just because they can only sell 700 (or 2000 or 2) watches a year doesn't make them good or bad.

[subtona]

The Chrono bleu would be my choice.

Gronefeld are interesting watches and really come close but imho the design is not as refined as the journe
I also am having trouble appreciating the randomness of the 8 seconds remontoire... for me, it is the answer to a question that hasn’t been asked. Perhaps another way to sum it up...frank muller?

Ps another thing I don’t get is designing your own dial, Kari V customs often look silly as a result of the bizarre and random choices collectors make... I have a job, it is not watch designer.

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by subtona

The Chrono bleu would be my choice.

Gronefeld are interesting watches and really come close but imho the design is not as refined as the journe
I also am having trouble appreciating the randomness of the 8 seconds remontoire... for me, it is the answer to a question that hasn’t been asked. Perhaps another way to sum it up...frank muller?

Ps another thing I don’t get is designing your own dial, Kari V customs often look silly as a result of the bizarre and random choices collectors make... I have a job, it is not watch designer.

I can't remember where I read it, but the remontoire is a special complication for them dating back to their childhood (I believe the choice of 8 seconds is also nostalgic for them).

I half agree on your point about customization. On one hand, customers can truly create some God awful designs... which can end up hurting the brand if/ when they hit the used market. On the other hand, it's a great thing to have that extra special connection to a watch you designed (or maybe holds little details that remind you of special events in your life).

Maybe the in between is what FPJ does. Allow select customers to customize, but the final approval goes through the head watchmaker/designer.

[Ilushka85]

So then the question remains if gronefeld... what options for it? Steel / Salmon or move to white gold /salmon. or spend the money on the kari v dials?

[DGB]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Let me rephrase what I wrote for you...

Why does everyone keep thinking FPJ is so good? I just don't get their marketing prowess. It's just another mass produced watch. I know, I know, "But Pauli, they only make like 2 watches a year!" (or whatever production number you are going to quote). It's still a 99% machine made product, I don't care how few they sell. I would look at JLC over FPJ any day of the week. Grönefeld is an actually interesting brand.

I hope that's better.

My point was that production numbers have no impact on whether or not their product is likeable to me. Just because they can only sell 700 (or 2000 or 2) watches a year doesn't make them good or bad.

FPJ is limited production, not mass produced, but you corrected that.

They are hand made not machine made as you wrongly mentioned and also hand assembled in Geneva thus its limited production.

You got one number correct, that is 99% .... but that is the watch components they build themselves.

Each watch is a masterpiece of innovation, FPJ has patented more innovations in the last 10 years that any other watchmaker.

FPJ is way above standard luxury watches. The CB dial is unique with the way it reflects light, no picture can capture that like the naked eye can.

That’s why FPJ is highly respected and sought after.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BigAppleBill]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

I don't want to take anything away from anyone that owns one and loves it. They are certainly one of the "it" watches right now.

In person they are fine but I don't care for the company and their philosophy from the top down. I also don't care for their manufacturing process.

But have you ever had one on your wrist? Have you ever held the watch in your hand and turned it over to see the solid 18K (handmade) movement in person with your own eyes? Have you wound the crown and felt the smoothness? Have you seen how unbelievably thin the watch is as it sits on your wrist, yet still manages to deliver a satisfying heft because of the tantalum case? If not, then I would caution you not to dismiss the watch because you’ve seen it in photos or on someone else’s wrist. I see you’re in the NYC area. I would be happy to oblige you an up close experience of my personal CB if you’re interested.

[bigfatpauli]

Originally Posted by DGB

FPJ is limited production, not mass produced, but you corrected that.

They are hand made not machine made as you wrongly mentioned and also hand assembled in Geneva thus its limited production.

You got one number correct, that is 99% .... but that is the watch components they build themselves.

Each watch is a masterpiece of innovation, FPJ has patented more innovations in the last 10 years that any other watchmaker.

FPJ is way above standard luxury watches. The CB dial is unique with the way it reflects light, no picture can capture that like the naked eye can.

That’s why FPJ is highly respected and sought after.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Again, I don't want to take anything away from anyone's enjoyment of their FPJ. Believe what you will about the brand and the "hand made" marketing.

Enjoy your watch, as that really is all they are meant for.

[_speedmaster_]

Originally Posted by DGB

FPJ has patented more innovations in the last 10 years that any other watchmaker.

That honor belongs to DeBethune.

[bigfatpauli]

Originally Posted by BigAppleBill

But have you ever had one on your wrist? Have you ever held the watch in your hand and turned it over to see the solid 18K (handmade) movement in person with your own eyes? Have you wound the crown and felt the smoothness? Have you seen how unbelievably thin the watch is as it sits on your wrist, yet still manages to deliver a satisfying heft because of the tantalum case? If not, then I would caution you not to dismiss the watch because you’ve seen it in photos or on someone else’s wrist. I see you’re in the NYC area. I would be happy to oblige you an up close experience of my personal CB if you’re interested.

Hi BigAppleBill,

Yes, I have actually spent quite a bit of time looking at FPJ's both at dealers and wearing one for a week (borrowed from a friend who has one). The CS was on my short list for a while. Although I have not seen a CB in the metal, I have experience with many of their other watches.

The brand isn't for me. That's a me thing. Everyone can like, or dislike whatever they want.

I really appreciate your kind offer of meeting up. It is always nice to meet a fellow watch lover! After all, I don't run into fellow WIS in my everyday life and it is always special to share our passion. If I'm in NYC in the near future, I will be sure to let you know, and if you are ever in Toronto I am happy to show you were to get the good coffee

-Paul

[bigfatpauli]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Hating on FPJ for being mass produced is beyond fawkt.

I'm not sure if this was directed at me, but I never said anything about 'hating' the brand, much less hating it for being mass produced.

[GB-man]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

I'm not sure if this was directed at me, but I never said anything about 'hating' the brand, much less hating it for being mass produced.

Yes I was referencing this.

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

Why does everyone keep thinking FPJ is so good? I just don't get their marketing prowess. It's just another mass produced watch. I know, I know, "But Pauli, they only make like 2000 watches a year!" (or whatever production number you are going to quote). It's still a 99% machine made product, I don't care how few they sell. I would look at JLC over FPJ any day of the week. Grönefeld is an actually interesting brand.

[bigfatpauli]

Originally Posted by GB-man

Yes I was referencing this.

It is just another mass produced watch. So are most Langes, and I love that brand. Neither brand is Gronefeld or Akriva.

Me not liking FPJ has nothing to do with production volume.

[Lo100169]

Originally Posted by bigfatpauli

I'm not sure if this was directed at me, but I never said anything about 'hating' the brand, much less hating it for being mass produced.

FPJ is not mass produced:
- they made about 40 grande sonnerie in total, it took them years to develop the watch
- production of the CB is now 100 a year
- the make 700 watches a year in total

They use state of the art machinery to produce the watch components to high standards, then apply hand finishing while a single watchmaker assembles the entire watch.
It is a different philosophy than P. Dufour who does everything old school.
that is why i like FPJ so much, it is a great balance between tradition and modernity.

And definitely not a mass production.

[bigfatpauli]

Originally Posted by Lo100169

FPJ is not mass produced:
- they made about 40 grande sonnerie in total, it took them years to develop the watch
- production of the CB is now 100 a year
- the make 700 watches a year in total

They use state of the art machinery to produce the watch components to high standards, then apply hand finishing while a single watchmaker assembles the entire watch.
It is a different philosophy than P. Dufour who does everything old school.
that is why i like FPJ so much, it is a great balance between tradition and modernity.

And definitely not a mass production.

Mass-produce definition is - to produce in quantity usually by machinery.
merriam-webster.com

It is, literally by definition, mass produced. That doesn't make it bad (or good).

At any rate, this is going no where.

To anyone that likes FPJ, enjoy them - they are great watches by all measure. Ignore the guy on the internet who doesn't appreciate them like you do.

[Lo100169]

You missed the word “quantity” but never mind....