How to stop the flipping scourge

[M9APO]

Have the warranty of the purchased watch serial no. registered to the buyer and drop the warranty card system.

If the owner wants to sell in future then an online warranty transfer can be carried out on the Rolex site.

Only a fixed number of transfers in a given period are allowed though, making it difficult for flippers.

[Harry-57]

Originally Posted by teck21

It is a problem. Everybody knows that.

It may be a problem if you can't get a watch you want easily at MSRP or below. It isn't a problem if you are selling one.

One is not related to the other. A "flipper" is not depriving me of a watch I can't buy. The world isn't that small and I'm just not that important. Nobody is.

Think positive. Plan positive. Build relationships. Be patient. What other people are doing doesn't matter unless they are swindling you - in which case you have legal remedies.

[Rocket_Man]

Many people have come up with ideas, but this is not an easy problem to fix. It will fix itself when the 'flexing' culture changes, or moves on to some other hotter commodity. (who knows how long that will take).

Rolex could drastically change their distribution channel and take ownership of it. Get rid of all their independent AD's and sell only through Rolex owned and operated Boutiques. They could vett their customers better and control who buys their watches, but I don't think Rolex wants to get into the retail business and own real estate worldwide not to mention managing people.

They could ask that watches be paid in full in advance and deliver the watch months later. That might cut down on flippers with limited cash flow.

[teck21]

Originally Posted by Harry-57

It may be a problem if you can't get a watch you want easily at MSRP or below. It isn't a problem if you are selling one.

One is not related to the other. A "flipper" is not depriving me of a watch I can't buy. The world isn't that small and I'm just not that important. Nobody is.

Think positive. Plan positive. Build relationships. Be patient. What other people are doing doesn't matter unless they are swindling you - in which case you have legal remedies.

I didn’t intend it to mean it was a problem on a personal level for any individual, but rather a problem for the brand and the market in general.

The flippers not only deprive legitimate buyers of watches, and even profit at their expense. This engenders plenty of ill will towards the brand, and towards ADs. Often undeserved, but it happens a lot.

From your perspective, I totally see why it is not a problem. It is just a watch, and it boggles the mind how people can get so upset about not being able to buy one at an AD considering how many other options everyone has.


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[Brew]

Engraved case backs, including after-sales replacements for sold/gifted pieces?


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[teck21]

Originally Posted by Brew

Engraved case backs, including after-sales replacements for sold/gifted pieces?


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That’s a big ask which would kill a lot if legitimate demand as well.

I don’t want to sell my watches and even I don’t want their case backs engraved with anything.

Even if it’s my own name or any engraving of my choice.

It would reduce demand for sure though. Or perhaps the market will simply adapt to the new normal of engraved casebacks.

No way to know for sure without actually doing it.


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[Brew]

Originally Posted by teck21

That’s a big ask which would kill a lot if legitimate demand as well.

I don’t want to sell my watches and even I don’t want their case backs engraved with anything.

Even if it’s my own name or any engraving of my choice.


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I think only WIS would have a problem with this. I don’t think Rolex’s real market, or even perhaps it’s “intended” market, would balk at a tasteful “customization” performed by Rolex, to commemorate a special occasion, etc.


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[BLNR Nairobi]

I believe the issue solves itself when people realize that i) owning a Rolex is not a right and ii) there are many wonderful timepieces from quality and storied brands out there that are easily available and, often, more affordable.

Without those two points happening, there’s really nothing that Rolex can do to fix the situation (and not kill their brand - eg killing their brand by requiring people to report their watches, forcefully engraved case backs, flooding the market with references, becoming a boutique-only approach, raising prices to match demand and then having to offer discounts when the market inevitably softens).

[Francist]

Impossible unless Rolex willing to create a global blacklist.
Which is equivalent to shooting themselves on the foot.

[Chester01]

It’s interesting one talks flippers but the real issue are organized flippers also known as gray market dealers. Rolex can regulate this, simply first come first serve and they don’t. The few hundred or thousand gray dealers/flippers have hundreds of new watches refreshed every week. This is widely known and they have a steady supply coming in. It’s not a disputable fact. When have the largest grays ever been out of Daytonas and gmt? Never. Their stock is far to big for one or two AD, they are all in on it.

[1William]

The first premise of this post is that there is a problem. Only if you can not get the watch you want from an AD at msrp when you want it. This falls into two categories, the first is what we are really talking about is money. The money that it takes to build a relationship with AD to be able to buy a hot item. And the money it takes to buy the watch from a Grey Seller, which is typically significantly more right now than msrp. The other money side is most buyers want the hot Rolex watches at msrp so they can have equity and at some point, should they decide, they can sell/trade for more money or a better/different watch. I have no issue with any of this as it falls in to free commerce and the market drives secondary prices.

The Second point is the entitlement mentality that many show that makes them think they should get a hot Rolex/PP watch just by asking and having the money to pay for it. Stepping to the front of the line with no or limited purchase history. The concept of "Fairness" is subjective and depending on where you are in getting what you want might be a sliding scale.

I do not like they way things are with the supply issues with Rolex/PP/AP. Is there anything I can do about it? Sure, adapt to what is going on around me and make decisions that are consistent with attaining what I want, at what I consider to be fair market prices. While I like complaining about the weather I know there is nothing I can do about it. Same with Rolex supply and demand issues. They will change with time. I hope for the better but am prepared for it to get worse. Just my thoughts.

[beshannon]

Originally Posted by 1William

The first premise of this post is that there is a problem. Only if you can not get the watch you want from an AD at msrp when you want it.

[Keepchasing]

Originally Posted by 1William

The first premise of this post is that there is a problem. Only if you can not get the watch you want from an AD at msrp when you want it. This falls into two categories, the first is what we are really talking about is money. The money that it takes to build a relationship with AD to be able to buy a hot item. And the money it takes to buy the watch from a Grey Seller, which is typically significantly more right now than msrp. The other money side is most buyers want the hot Rolex watches at msrp so they can have equity and at some point, should they decide, they can sell/trade for more money or a better/different watch. I have no issue with any of this as it falls in to free commerce and the market drives secondary prices.

The Second point is the entitlement mentality that many show that makes them think they should get a hot Rolex/PP watch just by asking and having the money to pay for it. Stepping to the front of the line with no or limited purchase history. The concept of "Fairness" is subjective and depending on where you are in getting what you want might be a sliding scale.

I do not like they way things are with the supply issues with Rolex/PP/AP. Is there anything I can do about it? Sure, adapt to what is going on around me and make decisions that are consistent with attaining what I want, at what I consider to be fair market prices. While I like complaining about the weather I know there is nothing I can do about it. Same with Rolex supply and demand issues. They will change with time. I hope for the better but am prepared for it to get worse. Just my thoughts.

This is spot on.
I was trying to type out basically the same thing, but you articulated it way better.

[telesquire]

Originally Posted by 1William

The Second point is the entitlement mentality that many show that makes them think they should get a hot Rolex/PP watch just by asking and having the money to pay for it. Stepping to the front of the line with no or limited purchase history. The concept of "Fairness" is subjective and depending on where you are in getting what you want might be a sliding scale.

Your point itself is about your OWN entitlement for goodness sake. Why should YOU be entitled to buy the 'hot' models just because you have bought something before from the dealer? What a terrible almost elitist self-entitled attitude you have. My God how dare they ask to buy a Daytona or SS Sub without having bought before, the bare face cheek of it. This kind of attitude makes me sad to be a Rolex owner of 30 plus years.
This whole 'purchase history' nonsense with 'my AD' is the root of Rolex' 'problems' IMO. What started off a way of identifying the genuine private buyers has been twisted into unscrupulous retail trading practices which are actually against the trading laws in most countries. With the process of selection they have actually lost the plot.
They need to cull the dealers who want you to buy some other brands/jewellery first before getting the Rolex you want. This is what its damaging the brand and discouraging new buyers. EVERYBODY should be able to buy a Rolex...the actual one they want when it comes available in a sensible time frame. There should be no restrictions. Free trade? Yes.

Back on topic. Maybe a way of deterring flippers is to withold the 'paperwork' and send it out a few months later to the registered buyer only? Maybe that would deter some?

[Harry-57]

Originally Posted by telesquire

This whole 'purchase history' nonsense with 'my AD' is the root of Rolex' 'problems' IMO. What started off a way of identifying the genuine private buyers has been twisted into unscrupulous retail trading practices which are actually against the trading laws in most countries.

And frequently nothing more than pure invention for internet consumption.

When real, these practices are AD policy, not Rolex policy. Rolex don't have any policies about what people can do with their personal, legally owned property because that, as you point out, would be illegal. But to avoid argument, the AD will blame Rolex and claim they are being made to do it. Absolute rubbish, recycled and posted by people who either don't have a clue or repeat it because it helps them make some sort of point about how "unfair" it is.

Us Brits have a well deserved reputation for being entitled wingers. But it looks like we've got plenty of world class, international competition. That's OK, because if we lose the worst wingers gong it will give us something else to complain about.

[1665fan]

Rolex is testing the waters…..Tudor, all the stock in the world, Rolex no stock……w no Rolex in stock they sell waaaaaaaay more tudors and reserve the Rolex brand for customers they want to own Rolex……it’s like a huge experiment in luxury goods/game as I see it

[IamJacky]

I think the most realistic way is to have the 5 year warranty bound to the original buyer at the AD. This way the resell value of the watches even at brand-new-in-box condition would drop dramatically, hence discouraging the secondary trading.

Having very limited spend history at any ADs myself, naturally I do not have any access to the hot models besides the secondary market, therefore I would not have wanted Rolex to implement this hypothetical policy, but I'll say this, even if Rolex binds the 5 year warranty to original buyers only, I will still purchase the ones that I currently have if my only chance of obtaining them is through the grey - at reasonable, competitive market prices that is.

[RJM25R]

Originally Posted by teck21

It is a problem. Everybody knows that.

There’s no blame to be assigned for doing it because that’s just rational human behaviour, the chance for a quick buck.

But every watch that gets taken away from an AD purely for the sole purpose of selling again without adding value deprives another genuine customer of a chance of it from an AD, that is also surely not in doubt.

What is it you think Rolex and/or ADs can do, in conjunction or not, to ensure as few watches as possible go to these opportunistic scalpers?

As it stands, Rolex tries to ‘dissuade’ its ADs from funnelling directly to greys (via the threat of dealership revocation), and to individual flippers (via black listing of individuals).

This discussion is not about Rolex increasing supply to resolve the demand issues, or demand supply issues in general, such as whether demand is ‘real or fake’.

The market situation is what it is, littered with opportunities for scalpers to profit.

In this light, what else can, or should Rolex/ ADs do?

Curious as to people’s views.

Mine are straightforward. Make sure everybody pays ‘market’ price via relationship building/bundling (even though Rolex frowns on outright binding), but I understand that’s not a popular view, and it also has its drawbacks.

What solutions would some of you propose?

Edit:
For the purpose of this particular discussion, flipping refers to the buying of a popular reference at an AD with little or no intention of being the end user, but for monetary profit.


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Nothing can be done to stop it. There are humans who rob banks, attack people, steal cars and deal drugs for easy money. These all have the threats of jail time and/or death if you fvck with the wrong person so a threat-free option to make money will always be attractive!

Flipping a Rolex gives some people months of salary tax free…… who’s saying no to that?


Blacklist me? Go ahead! I’m massively $$$$$$$$$*


*not my opinion and actions, merely my opinion of the thoughts of a flipper

[Oystersteel92]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLB27j4vZnU

One of the best, if not the very best video I've seen on the general state of the market for certain timepiece brands including Rolex.

[7enderbender]

It’s a strategic decision for Rolex. They can drastically increase their prices - risking damaging the brand in the long run.
They can’t and shouldn’t increase production.
They could start thinking about who their core audience is now or in the future. I’ve said it before and people don’t like it, but I’ll say it again: they need to decide if they are a Western brand or if they primarily want to cater to Far East and Middle East tastes.
If I read this correctly, Hong Kong has 60 ADs? That’s probably more than in all of Europe (I’m exaggerating and somebody will correct me, but you get my point). If Rolex thinks that the West is dead (may well be the way things are going) then they should continue their strategy with bigger, gaudier watches sold mostly far away. If they can maintain the “Swiss made” recognition in the long run with that remains to be seen. And I’ll say the same about European (in particular) car manufacturers.

[whattimeyougot]

Flipping will stop when it becomes difficult to make a quick buck in our society. Hit just right on a stock and you have your Rolex money within a week. Crypto same. YouTube, TikTock, etc. There are so many ways to ‘hustle’ in today’s society and make money quick that there will always be people with ‘new’ money looking to spend it. Go back 30 years, pre-internet, and it took time and savings to buy a Rolex. Those days are gone and gone for good.

In short, flipping has just begun.


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[teck21]

Originally Posted by whattimeyougot

Flipping will stop when it becomes difficult to make a quick buck in our society. Hit just right on a stock and you have your Rolex money within a week. Crypto same. YouTube, TikTock, etc. There are so many ways to ‘hustle’ in today’s society and make money quick that there will always be people with ‘new’ money looking to spend it. Go back 30 years, pre-internet, and it took time and savings to buy a Rolex. Those days are gone and gone for good.

In short, flipping has just begun.


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That is true, the Internet (and technology) has changed things forever, including human behaviour.

The Internet has enabled the ‘quick buck’ in a way in a way never before possible and there’s no putting the genie back in the bottle.

Perhaps a large destruction of demand is indeed the only way to end flipping, especially since Rolex is not planning to ‘rectify’ the supply situation.


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[gerry100]

To me the question is when the excessive demand abates.

Nobody needs a Rolex.

IMO, the excessive demand could drop as quickly as it appeared for a variety of reasons including economic conditions, reduction in excess cash, the next "best greatest thing" comes along etc

If one could predict these things they could buy whatever they wanted

we'll see

[Mystro]

Do nothing as there is nothing anyone can do. This is like stopping water from being wet.

[VegasBaby]

Why weren't all the people criticizing flippers and flipping buying these items when they were readily available, just a few years ago?? Other than a SS Daytona, virtually every Rolex model was available for MSRP (or less) at your local AD or big discounts from......guess who?????? Grey Dealers. Hypocrites and whiners. Get over it!!!!

[Harry-57]

Originally Posted by VegasBaby

Why weren't all the people criticizing flippers and flipping buying these items when they were readily available, just a few years ago??

Presumably because back then, those evil flippers and greys were driving discounts, not bubbles. Now they are doing the opposite and they are doing it to personally piss off anyone who wants to buy a Rolex and can't. And Rolex is complicit. Self important much?

Don't like how the grey market works for Rolex and a handful of other brands that buck the trend? Buy an Omega, Breitling, Tag etc. Get a massive discount. Got to have a Rolex? Get in line or dig deep, same as the rest of us. Or buy a Rolex your AD actually has for sale. They do have some.

[VegasBaby]

Originally Posted by Harry-57

Presumably because back then, those evil flippers and greys were driving discounts, not bubbles. Now they are doing the opposite and they are doing it to personally piss off anyone who wants to buy a Rolex and can't. And Rolex is complicit. Self important much?

Don't like how the grey market works for Rolex and a handful of other brands that buck the trend? Buy an Omega, Breitling, Tag etc. Get a massive discount. Got to have a Rolex? Get in line or dig deep, same as the rest of us. Or buy a Rolex your AD actually has for sale. They do have some.

Actually, they weren't buying back then because there was no FOMO, no urgency and quite frankly no desire because they were all readily available and attainable at any AD. Once social media started going crazy, hyping every SS model in the Rolex catalogue, well this where we are.
.
Up until late 2017, I use to buy all my watches from Greys ,where large discounts were offered. Since then, I buy all my watches from my local AD, where paying retail is way better than paying the overinflated/market price for the watches I desire. Of course, I only get one watch per year but that works for me!!! You gotta go with the flow......

P.S. Back in the 60's and 70's, Greys pretty much didn't exist as the common discount on high end watches was 33%+. Of course, the retail markup was was greater back then so ADs had more room.

[Harry-57]

Originally Posted by VegasBaby

They do indeed! I use to buy all my watches from Greys when large discounts were offered and now I buy all my watches from my local AD, where paying retail is way better than buying from Greys. Of course, I only get one watch per year but that works for me!!! You gotta go with the flow......

You sure have. I bought a "cheap" BLRO today. I only paid MSRP! My Rolex AD will usually either match the grey market or get close enough on other brands to get the business.

Over the course of maybe 30 years ish, I have saved more on MSRP buying from greys than I have paid over MSRP for a couple of hot watches which my dealer simply couldn't help me with.

[JMac6]

When you buy a Rolex, it gets registered to the buyer. Warranty only flows to the buyer, and servicing can only be requested by the buyer.

If you want to change ownership, you have to do so through your AD, who will then submit the request to Rolex. (Or, perhaps the AD has authority to “transfer title”).

[ThatOtherGuy7]

I find this thread a bit ironic considering whenever someone makes a thread about wait time, a ton of people jump in saying to go with grey.