Submariner Magnetized!!! But I finally solved the magnetism puzzle...

[grizzlymambo]

Demagnetizer: K&D plus a cheap $10 amazon one
Compass: Suunto
Timegrapher: Weishi 1000
Magnetic Field measuring app: Magnetic field & DC Current Detector

[grizzlymambo]

I am using a Citizen auto, degaussing it, and using it while using the laptop and then testing the Citizen. For sure it is becoming magnetic inside, but not enough to affect timing much. The magnetic field app is showing an increase in magnetism in the watch, plus the compass reacts a lot more.

[grizzlymambo]

Here is a thread discussing a METAS Omega getting magnetized: https://omegaforums.net/threads/meta...netized.62311/

the experience is virtually the same as mine. I really recommend people just check their watches for magnetism - even if your watch is running well, so long as you've used a laptop, probably some part inside is magnetized.

[fskywalker]

Originally Posted by Mystro

You would see like 30 second + errors if magnetized.

This


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[grizzlymambo]

Originally Posted by fskywalker

This


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Sigh. We still on this? We just ignoring all the other posts and focusing on just one opinion?

There is 30s + deviation if the HAIRSPRING is magnetized, yes. But if other parts are magnetized, you can measurably see a difference of less than 30s deviation, and this is measurably PROVEN after degaussing a magnetized watch. It is proven consistently time and time again.

Without even doing any tests, we can just simply use plain ol logic. The Milgauss and Airking have a nickel phosphorous pallet fork, which is amagnetic, correct? Other models do not, correct? Ergo, other models' pallet fork can be influenced by magnetism and be magnetized, even if the hairspring cannot. Based on one's understanding of how magnetism affects watches, one would infer that if the balance spring was magnetized, it would be a large (30+ seconds) influence, whereas another magnetized part like the pallet fork would have considerably less but non-zero effect. Right? And surprise, surprise, actual real-world testing supports this understanding.

So let's just move on.

[S’portEye]

Welcome to the forum OP. You will come across better if you framed your posts without sounding like a wounded animal fighting its last stand in order to prove a point.

[Kevin of Larchmont]

Originally Posted by grizzlymambo

.. and then immediately refuted by the 2 posts following? Look, it's argumentative, don't you think, to dispute the results of someone's measurements (not theories). Basically they're just calling me a liar. "Let's just ignore this guy's posts because he made it all up", so not really conducive to healthy discussion in the spirit of learning from each other. Also not productive to pull rank in a discussion.

I don't think anyone is calling you a liar. On the contrary I'm confident that everyone believes that you believe your diagnosis and results.

[dannyp]

This may be an exceedingly stupid question, but: Can a magnetized watch "infect" others in the watch box beside it? Like a super-spreader with many asymptomatic cases, for lack of a better analogy ?

[EEpro]

Originally Posted by dannyp

This may be an exceedingly stupid question, but: Can a magnetized watch "invest" others in the watch box beside it? Like a super-spreader with many asymptomatic cases, for lack of a better analogy ?

No it cannot.

[wsfarrell]

I can't believe people are still going around and around on this. The pointer of a compass is magnetized. If there is no metal near it, it will point north. If there is any ferrous metal near it, it will point to that metal. Most watches contain ferrous metal, as do paper clips, carbon knives, fish hooks, and a million other things. A compass will be attracted to all of these.

To use a compass to check for a magnetized watch, the compass must be de-magnetized first (Chicago School of Watchmaking manual, chapter 11). Because the compass needle (a) is very light and (b) rides on an almost frictionless pivot, it is extremely sensitive to nearby objects that are magnetized.

To reiterate: compass needles are magnetic, and are attracted to any nearby ferrous metal. Once de-magnetized, they will be attracted only to magnetized objects.

[grizzlymambo]

Originally Posted by wsfarrell

I can't believe people are still going around and around on this. The pointer of a compass is magnetized. If there is no metal near it, it will point north. If there is any ferrous metal near it, it will point to that metal. Most watches contain ferrous metal, as do paper clips, carbon knives, fish hooks, and a million other things. A compass will be attracted to all of these.

To use a compass to check for a magnetized watch, the compass must be de-magnetized first (Chicago School of Watchmaking manual, chapter 11). Because the compass needle (a) is very light and (b) rides on an almost frictionless pivot, it is extremely sensitive to nearby objects that are magnetized.

To reiterate: compass needles are magnetic, and are attracted to any nearby ferrous metal. Once de-magnetized, they will be attracted only to magnetized objects.

what you say makes sense, but nevertheless there is a difference between a compass needle's reaction to a degaussed watch, compared to prior to degaussing. Some watches, like the Sub, currently have zero reaction from the compass, but before degaussing had a very small reaction from it.

My thinking is that the part that is magnetized is very small, like a pallet fork, and therefore will not elicit a reaction from a compass if not magnetized, because of the steel shielding in between. However, some watches will always have a reaction from the compass (eg. the ones with a soft iron core), which supports what you are saying. In current Rolexes, most of the watch parts cannot be magnetized, and some cannot be magnetized but can be influenced by magnets (eg. brass); however, clearly the watch is not completely made from magnetically impervious materials - for example, the Milgauss has an nonmagnetic pallet fork, but other models do not have a nonmagnetic pallet fork.

So what do we make of this? Brass does not affect a compass, and yet it can be influenced by a strong magnetic field. Therefore we can infer that most of Rolex's movement is made from either nonmagnetic material or a material like brass, and also some small parts like axles and pallet fork that can be magnetized. If these small parts are not magnetized, would they affect a magnetized needle? I think they wouldn't because of shielding from other parts and the case, and the results support this.

[grizzlymambo]

Originally Posted by S’portEye

Welcome to the forum OP. You will come across better if you framed your posts without sounding like a wounded animal fighting its last stand in order to prove a point.

This is not about proving a point - this is about discussing results. It is one thing to look at results and discuss why it happened; it is an entirely different matter to be in denial. One is argumentative, and the other is productive.

To simply say that "unless it is > 30s rate change, it's not magnetized" is dismissive and isn't helpful, especially with no detailed discussion to support this to help educate the forum. Look how many posts are devoted to this worthless subject, which could have instead have been taken up by some scientifically curious discussion.

[grizzlymambo]

Originally Posted by Kevin of Larchmont

I don't think anyone is calling you a liar. On the contrary I'm confident that everyone believes that you believe your diagnosis and results.

Isn't that like saying, "I know personally you are not Napolean Bonarparte, but I believe that you believe you think you are". This thread is not intended to be philosophical, even though people are clearly treating it as such. I do however invite, as I have continuously, to actually test their watches and discuss results, instead of talking about something they read on the internet.

Do you see the difference? One attitude is inviting people to test and share their experiences, and the other attitude, ironically is talking about their beliefs about the subject. I suppose because you think that "belief" is so important rather than science, that you hold the latter attitude.

I can go on forever about talking nonsense like this, which will irritate everyone. Or we could just talk about watches and magnetism and testing - which I think some people would find useful. I asked people to move on, because I find such discussion intellectually stunting; after several pages of back and forth, I think some of you will beg that we "move on" like I politely requested in the first place.

[Jocke]

Here I show you a good example what a demagnetizer can do to a movement.

[Gary Busey]

Your data is too tight to come to that conclusion.


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[grizzlymambo]

Originally Posted by Jocke

Here I show you a good example what a demagnetizer can do to a movement.

Yes, I had that result from some of my watches after degaussing. Here is a list of the results from my watches after degaussing:

Result #1 (eg. Longines chrono)
1. Before: large inaccuracy (>30s), low amplitude (< 250), large beat error (0.5ms or more)
After: acceptable accuracy, >+20-30 degree improvement of amplitude, lower beat error

Result #2 (eg. Rolex, Tudor with silicon, Smiths with antimagnetic shielding)
2. Before: small inaccuracy (2-10s) and lower amplitude, small beat error (0.2ms to 0.5ms)
After: improved accuracy, +10-30 degree improvement of amplitude, healthy beat error (0 to 0.2ms)

Result #3 (eg. Citizen)
3. Before: unreadable chart (scattered dots)
After: acceptable accuracy, healthy amplitude, healthy beat error

[grizzlymambo]

Originally Posted by Gary Busey

Your data is too tight to come to that conclusion.


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For now, that's all I have to work off, hence why I asked people to share their test results too.

[EEpro]

I would summarize your data as: while not magnetized in the classic sense mainspring magnetization, there are other ferrous components in and around a movement that can store a small magnetic field and those can have a small influence on the timing of a watch.

I believe the visceral response you're getting is due to calling a 2 spd deviation "magnetized".

[Kevin of Larchmont]

Originally Posted by grizzlymambo

Isn't that like saying, "I know personally you are not Napolean Bonarparte, but I believe that you believe you think you are".

Yep.

[3wheeler7]

Hi, I've recently purchased a pre-owned 2004 15210 OP Date with 3135 movement. History is largely unknown but cosmetic condition is virtually unworn (original sticker on case back and inside of clasp etc).
On the Timegrapher it shows between +6 and +10 through the positions.
Offered it up to a compass needle and observed a noticeable deflection.
Demagnetized it and again offered it up to the compass and now there is no needle deflection whatsoever.
Tomorrow it will be on the Timegrapher again - this will be interesting, I'll report back.

My only experience of severe watch magnetization was on a work colleagues Omega Seamaster which overnight went from near 0 to +90spd. He happened to mentioned to me that his other half was taking it into the AD that day but I told him to bring it to work next day and I'd try demagnetizing it.
This we did and it was straight back to 0.
The cause was him putting it on his garage shelf next to a screwdriver with interchangeable magnetic bits. Supposedly his Omega is antimagmetic to 15000 Gauss.
How much would the AD have charged him for that fix?
No issues so far with my 2011 14060M 4 liner +1.5spd since birth, (not worn much though).

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by grizzlymambo

.. and then immediately refuted by the 2 posts following? Look, it's argumentative, don't you think, to dispute the results of someone's measurements (not theories). Basically they're just calling me a liar. "Let's just ignore this guy's posts because he made it all up", so not really conducive to healthy discussion in the spirit of learning from each other. Also not productive to pull rank in a discussion.

For the most part, I have to agree.
Though people may not necessarily be calling one a liar. Just sceptical to the point of being perceived as accusory with all the limitations of these forms of communication

Pulling rank is another matter as well.
On reflection, i know I've done it from time to time in life.
Sometimes it's warranted, other times not so much. It's part of the human condition.

Be thankfull for small mercies in that the really heavy hitters haven't tried to dismantle you

I for one appreciate you sharing your observations anyway

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by Jocke

Here I show you a good example what a demagnetizer can do to a movement.

Thanks

[Dirt]

Originally Posted by grizzlymambo

Isn't that like saying, "I know personally you are not Napolean Bonarparte, but I believe that you believe you think you are". This thread is not intended to be philosophical, even though people are clearly treating it as such. I do however invite, as I have continuously, to actually test their watches and discuss results, instead of talking about something they read on the internet.

Do you see the difference? One attitude is inviting people to test and share their experiences, and the other attitude, ironically is talking about their beliefs about the subject. I suppose because you think that "belief" is so important rather than science, that you hold the latter attitude.

I can go on forever about talking nonsense like this, which will irritate everyone. Or we could just talk about watches and magnetism and testing - which I think some people would find useful. I asked people to move on, because I find such discussion intellectually stunting; after several pages of back and forth, I think some of you will beg that we "move on" like I politely requested in the first place.

I have only ever magnetised a watch once.
That was from doing some serious spring cleaning and unthinkingly moving some fairly large hi-fi loudspeakers whilst wearing the watch.
I knew within hours of performing the task because it was running fast by a considerable amount where as before it was running spot on as it usually did.
Rolex had also recently serviced the watch and I returned it for them to examine and giving them the heads up about what I'd done. They confirmed it was indeed magnetised and rectified the issue without charge.
That's all I know

[nat]

If you happen to use an iPad with magnetic cover, it will magnetize your watch. Just one common day item that will do the trick...

[3wheeler7]

Just a quick follow - up after demagnetizing my 15210 my Timegrapher results are exactly the same as before, so even though the watch was showing magnetism against a compass needle removing it has had no effect on the timekeeping of the watch.

[arcampado]

OP, pardon my ignorance but how did you “degauss” your watch?

[3wheeler7]

Hi, using a cheap watch demagnetizer from Amazon, they really are all that's needed.

[Krash]

If you have a solid state drive, which most people have nowadays, your laptop should not generate much of a magnetic field. The older laptops with the spinning hard disk drive generated a much greater magnetic filed.

With that said, some laptops have magnets in them used for when closing them. They seal the monitor with the keyboard base, and also will trigger the laptop to go to sleep when the magnets are in contact with each other. I’m not really sure if these magnets generate a field strong enough to affect watches or not. I would expect some of the more fragile type dress watches to be more at risk than a Submariner or a pilot watch.

I use a laptop all the time and never really concerned myself about this. None of my watches appear to be magnetized. I’m basing this on the accuracy of the watches. However, I never actually performed a more scientific test on them.


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