How can you really trust that a grey market Rolex is authentic?

[brandrea]

The only people I would trust to authenticate a Rolex is RSC

[rambo99]

buy the seller, select 6 digit models, with box and warranty card. chances of getting a fake or stolen watch is relatively low.

[JoseR]

Both Rolex I purchased full sets were from trusted sellers that own legitimate B&M shops and I did lots of research on their business and reputation. So, in a way, that eased my worries. But I understand if some worry when purchasing from a private owner because now a days there is a lot of scams and dirty thieves.

[Sunstreaker]

It's fair and very valid point of concern. The reality is the risk will always exist (even if tiny) with any grey dealer.

Your best and literally only bet is to send the watch immediately to RSC for service and account for that cost in your overall purchase. You'll also get a 2 year warranty extension as a bonus (assuming it's authentic).

For those saying that Box and Papers is the only way to go ... one quick glance on eBay will show you that you can literally purchase anything including replica papers (yes, replica of the credit card style warranty cards printed with your serial number).

So again ... the only sure fire way to protect yourself is to send it immediately to RSC.

[JRell]

Originally Posted by Sunstreaker

It's fair and very valid point of concern. The reality is the risk will always exist (even if tiny) with any grey dealer.

Your best and literally only bet is to send the watch immediately to RSC for service and account for that cost in your overall purchase. You'll also get a 2 year warranty extension as a bonus (assuming it's authentic).

For those saying that Box and Papers is the only way to go ... one quick glance on eBay will show you that you can literally purchase anything including replica papers (yes, replica of the credit card style warranty cards printed with your serial number).

So again ... the only sure fire way to protect yourself is to send it immediately to RSC.

Crazy to pay that much above MSRP and then have to go through the hassle of sending to RSC just to see if it is legit. Just nuts to me. If I had to go grey I think I would spend the money on something else.

[rambo99]

Originally Posted by Sunstreaker

It's fair and very valid point of concern. The reality is the risk will always exist (even if tiny) with any grey dealer.

Your best and literally only bet is to send the watch immediately to RSC for service and account for that cost in your overall purchase. You'll also get a 2 year warranty extension as a bonus (assuming it's authentic).

For those saying that Box and Papers is the only way to go ... one quick glance on eBay will show you that you can literally purchase anything including replica papers (yes, replica of the credit card style warranty cards printed with your serial number).

So again ... the only sure fire way to protect yourself is to send it immediately to RSC.

are those warrant cards sold on ebay as good as authentic one, to the extent that even a grey dealer or a knowledgeable watch guy cant tell the difference after close examination? i doubted.

[Sunstreaker]

Originally Posted by rambo99

are those warrant cards sold on ebay as good as authentic one, to the extent that even a grey dealer or a knowledgeable watch guy cant tell the difference after close examination? i doubted.

No idea, I haven't actually seen one, all I know is that the option exists and it looks pretty convincing in photos.

[rambo99]

Originally Posted by Sunstreaker

No idea, I haven't actually seen one, all I know is that the option exists and it looks pretty convincing in photos.

do you actually know how to authenticate a warranty card?

[Sunstreaker]

Originally Posted by rambo99

do you actually know how to authenticate a warranty card?

No clue as I've never had to do this or worry about it.

[underpar]

Of course you are taking a risk. Remember when buying from a grey dealer, you will be, at best, the 3rd owner of the watch and even a trusted grey dealer can be fooled.

Sometimes it is something as simple as links being removed and replaced with aftermarket links. There are plenty of stories like this out there.

[GRabens]

Buy the seller. Some of the trusted sellers list above are reputable and I have personally dealt with David SW multiple times. It is also good to purchase complete sets with papers/cards, etc. as an extra degree of difficulty to pass off a fake product. Again, professional dealers that see authentic watches, paperwork, etc. all the time are much more likely to catch a fake than someone with less experience.

[underpar]

Originally Posted by GRabens

Buy the seller.

This is the most regurgitated saying on this forum and the most useless. There are a lot of great sellers on the various forums but that, by no means, guarantees you will receive a 100% authentic watch.

Do you really think that because they are trustworthy people that they are qualified to open a case and tell the difference between a fake and real movement?

Do you think they take the time to remove all links to weigh them individually and make sure they have not been removed and replaced with fakes?

Can they tell if a clasp has been removed and replaced with aftermarket?

If buying from a grey, the concern should not be whether or not the watch is authentic but rather if the entire watch is authentic.

For me, too many people have had access to a grey market watch, even if sold as "unworn".

[Nanasaka90]

Originally Posted by underpar

This is the most regurgitated saying on this forum and the most useless. There are a lot of great sellers on the various forums but that, by no means, guarantees you will receive a 100% authentic watch.

Do you really think that because they are trustworthy people that they are qualified to open a case and tell the difference between a fake and real movement?

Do you think they take the time to remove all links to weigh them individually and make sure they have not been removed and replaced with fakes?

Can they tell if a clasp has been removed and replaced with aftermarket?

If buying from a grey, the concern should not be whether or not the watch is authentic but rather if the entire watch is authentic.

For me, too many people have had access to a grey market watch, even if sold as "unworn".

I agree with you. I’m pretty sure some of our most trusted dealers also trust other dealers…it won’t surprise me if some of the watches get sold without being authenticated.

The allure of a quick sale is pretty strong.


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[SwissmadeTexan]

Originally Posted by underpar

This is the most regurgitated saying on this forum and the most useless. There are a lot of great sellers on the various forums but that, by no means, guarantees you will receive a 100% authentic watch.

Do you really think that because they are trustworthy people that they are qualified to open a case and tell the difference between a fake and real movement?

^ Yes most of these trusted sellers have luxury watchmakers with decades of experience on the payroll.

Do you think they take the time to remove all links to weigh them individually and make sure they have not been removed and replaced with fakes?

^ this is a stretch and no one is swaping out bracelet links. And you would be able to tell the difference without taking apart. Even on the best bracelets made right now in China.

Can they tell if a clasp has been removed and replaced with aftermarket?

^ yes there is actually a forum post on another forum that shows clasp codes and what Chinese factories those clasps are made at. Clasps are pretty easy also to tell the difference. Even on the best bracelets. There is one or 2 bracelets that are really really close to Gen but still has tells.


If buying from a grey, the concern should not be whether or not the watch is authentic but rather if the entire watch is authentic.

^ this is a mild concern but Frankensteining a watch to pass off as Gen doesn’t make a lot of sense financially. Unless the entire watch is fake except for movement. For example swaping out a green bezel insert on a Gen Hulk for a fake green bezel insert doesn’t make you much money really. And that’s if the seller gets away with it he’ll be doxed and never sell another watch.

For me, too many people have had access to a grey market watch, even if sold as "unworn".

Questions answered in the quoted post above. I’ll reiterate - educate yourself if you’re buying luxury brand watches these days. It’s only smart.

The biggest concern these days imo is getting a stolen watch. No real good universal databases to check serials on. There are a few but they’re not open to everyone and they aren’t comprehensive enough.

[asiparks]

Originally Posted by SwissmadeTexan

Questions answered in the quoted post above. I’ll reiterate - educate yourself if you’re buying luxury brand watches these days. It’s only smart.

The biggest concern these days imo is getting a stolen watch. No real good universal databases to check serials on. There are a few but they’re not open to everyone and they aren’t comprehensive enough.

Not disagreeing with your main points, but the copies are good enough that spotting a fake often requires having expertise in knowing exactly what to look for on the latest versions as well a genuine version in hand for comparison.
The fakes are easily good enough to fool 95% of regular buyers, especially those who still believe you can tell a fake by its “heft” or “by winding it” or it having a LEC at 6 o’clock ….

[skatamail]

buy the seller.
there are a few on here with lots of completed transactions, that I would imagine would not want to risk their reputation to make a quick buck.
make sure they have the watch in stock so you are not just dealing with a broker/source which imho decreases the likelyhood that a fake enters there supply chain.

It is also easier to make a superclone of an SS watch rather than a PM piece

[Jerrocop]

Its not worth the risk in my opinion. You're life will not end if you have to wait a year for a Rolex and in the meantime, look at other brands. There are sooo many great watches out there, no need to be myopic on only one brand or reference.

[rum77]

Buy the seller your chances of buying 'clone' is relatively low

[bob sims]

Originally Posted by burnthesehills

I keep reading articles and seeing videos about counterfeit Rolex watches including “super clones”, with many suggesting that they are extremely difficult to tell from authentic. Even by jewelers who open the case and inspect the movement.

From what I can tell, grey market dealers get these watches from all over the place. Typically from other greys and in many cases in bulk. I’m sure they give them a thorough once over, and can probably filter out most of the fakes. But it’s not unreasonable to think that some could slip through.

So even if a grey is selling what they believe is authentic, I assume there is some risk. And if one is paying the grey market premium over retail, is it worth the risk?

Just wondering everyone’s thoughts on the matter.

Given the scummy ethics of the AD's I have dealt with I would be more concerned with the AD switching in a clone!

[mikelprz]

Great points brought by all the posts on this thread.
Especially, not buying anything that could put a stressor on yourself and family if something were to go wrong.

My experience has been as follows.

I started buying and selling Rolex watches in New Zealand in 2008. Enjoyable and also partly like a hobby. I would buy them overseas, bring them into NZ and have my local AD check them out and give me an appraisal. This AD is or was around for generations. Not sure if they are still in business these days.
Armed with appraisal and confirmation from the AD/ and their watch service, my best ability to inspect the watch, plus others i knew to help, i would then sell the watch to the buyer. On a few occasions, the buyer wanted to go with me to the local AD, to have them look at the watch and give the thumbs up. I never had a problem, because i understood the concerns buyers may have.

However, if for some reason, the buyer seemed dodgy or too needy, i would not sell the watch to them. I preferred not to sell the watch to a client that was not sure about spending his money on the watch, because i'd rather not deal with drama for the profit margin. I would just tell them to please think about it and make sure this was the watch you wanted.
Credibility is a big thing in buying/selling high valued items. Watches, diamonds, gemstones, jewelry etc.

After moving to the U.S., importing Rolex into the U.S. just made it non-profitable for me. Even though it was enjoyable and partly a hobby, it was not worth the headaches with U.S. Customs.

Now i just buy Rolex, and other swiss mades for my own personal collection.
I do still sell watches, but as a Seiko AD. Small operation but it's enjoyable.

I enjoy watches and i think AD's as well as GM dealers enjoy what they do. I would never buy a watch from an AD or GM that just had bad service or i got the impression they were just there to make a buck.

[justin81]

You can’t.

[AdamW]

Originally Posted by burnthesehills

So even if a grey is selling what they believe is authentic, I assume there is some risk. And if one is paying the grey market premium over retail, is it worth the risk?

Just wondering everyone’s thoughts on the matter.

Hi Joe - Good to see someone else from the 413 here!

The truth is, unless you buy from an AD, you will never, truly have that peace of mind. It's just me, but these watches are too fickle and damned too expensive to worry about their history, provenance and whether they are going to be in the kind of order that will last for years. I'm too much of a type A personality. I would worry about everything lol. Plus, and here's the big plus... The last thing I want to do is pay absurd gray prices and still not ever be 100% sure the history of a watch I'm buying. I will never, ever pay over retail for a watch. But again, that's just me. Everyone should do what they feel comfortable with.

People here are in love with the trusted sellers. I just don't have that kind of confidence buying anything used and as delicate as a high end timepiece.

Cheers.

[burnthesehills]

Originally Posted by AdamW

Hi Joe - Good to see someone else from the 413 here!

The truth is, unless you buy from an AD, you will never, truly have that peace of mind. It's just me, but these watches are too fickle and damned too expensive to worry about their history, provenance and whether they are going to be in the kind of order that will last for years. I'm too much of a type A personality. I would worry about everything lol. Plus, and here's the big plus... The last thing I want to do is pay absurd gray prices and still not ever be 100% sure the history of a watch I'm buying. I will never, ever pay over retail for a watch. But again, that's just me. Everyone should do what they feel comfortable with.

People here are in love with the trusted sellers. I just don't have that kind of confidence buying anything used and as delicate as a high end timepiece.

Cheers.

I 100% agree with everything you just said.

[Chester01]

I mean more and more incentive these days. I also think people get handy with laser welding, polishing, and stickers can be sourced. Many suspect watches getting past off as NOS these days as that commands a premium as well.

[Bryan81]

How do you know an AD is selling you a genuine watch? Couldn’t they be trying to leverage their AD status and sell some high end fake Daytonas, BLROs, etc. to take advantage of the hype when they can’t get enough genuine models? Yes, they would lose their AD status and their business would be ruined.

Same goes for the well established trusted sellers. If they don’t do their due diligence to authenticate, their business is essentially gone if someone reports receiving a fake. Their reputation is as essential to their business, if not more so, as an AD’s reputation is to them.

A “trusted seller” in my book isn’t just some guy selling from his home that has good references. It’s someone who actually does this for a living and has many years of experience and built up credit in the industry.


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[BLNR Nairobi]

Originally Posted by Bryan81

How do you know an AD is selling you a genuine watch? Couldn’t they be trying to leverage their AD status and sell some high end fake Daytonas, BLROs, etc. to take advantage of the hype when they can’t get enough genuine models? Yes, they would lose their AD status and their business would be ruined.

Same goes for the well established trusted sellers. If they don’t do their due diligence to authenticate, their business is essentially gone if someone reports receiving a fake. Their reputation is as essential to their business, if not more so, as an AD’s reputation is to them.

A “trusted seller” in my book isn’t just some guy selling from his home that has good references. It’s someone who actually does this for a living and has many years of experience and built up credit in the industry.


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There are four broad buckets of risks in my view:

1. A seller knowingly selling a product that’s not authentic.
2. A seller unknowingly selling a product that’s not authentic.
3. A seller knowingly selling a product that is authentic but stolen.
4. A seller unknowingly selling a product that is authentic but stolen.

Looking at the example you gave - an AD selling a product that’s not authentic.

The risk there is 100% limited to number 1. A ‘bad actor’ AD that tries to sell fake products. While not impossible, it is a really limited risk (for Rolex ADs) that has to be considered a very marginal concern. The other risks are zero - because ADs get all of their product from Rolex. There’s no chance of fake or stolen products getting into their supply chain, unless Rolex starts providing stolen/fake products.

So, risk is only limited to number 1, and that is a really (really) small risk!

Now let’s look at the grey market.There the risk is not just limited to number 1 - the risk is across all four buckets. All four risks are active.

You have the number 1 risk of the ‘bad actor’ knowingly selling products that are not authentic.

You also have the number 2 risk of GM dealers unknowingly selling products that are not authentic. Not every GM dealer is cut from the same cloth, and even the ‘professional’ ones can get fooled. A recent episode of CRM Jewelers had four different groups debating on the authenticity of a Daytona. An early episode had them reviewing a solid gold fake Patek (that ironically had a chrono function that didn’t work, but in an 18k case). If watch values remain high there will be more and more incentive for criminals and their like to create more credible representations that can fool MOST GM dealers.

Then there are the risks of stolen watches.

The number 3 risk of knowingly selling stolen watches is actually a limited one. Not everyone is willing to flog off stolen merchandise.

But the number 4 risk of unknowingly selling stolen watches is a real concern, and one that a ‘professional GM dealer’ cannot determine even if he/she can tell a fake watch from a mile. There are a lot of new/newer references being sold with no box and papers, and while most of those are NOT stolen definitely a number are.

Caveat emptor.

TL/DR:
- Yes, there is a risk that a genuine Rolex AD can sell you a fake watch. But it is a very small risk. Very small. Small enough to be rounded to zero. Rolex ADs will also not have ANY of the other risks (2,3,4).
- For a GM AD the risk of them knowingly selling you a fake watch can also be small if you focus on the most ‘trusted’ names that have a lot to lose. Outside those few names the risk rapidly increases. However, GM dealers also face risks from number 2,3 and 4 (risks that genuine Rolex ADs are literally at zero risk).

[dtwer]

Originally Posted by BLNR Nairobi

There are four broad buckets of risks in my view:

1. A seller knowingly selling a product that’s not authentic.
2. A seller unknowingly selling a product that’s not authentic.
3. A seller knowingly selling a product that is authentic but stolen.
4. A seller unknowingly selling a product that is authentic but stolen.

Looking at the example you gave - an AD selling a product that’s not authentic.

The risk there is 100% limited to number 1. A ‘bad actor’ AD that tries to sell fake products. While not impossible, it is a really limited risk (for Rolex ADs) that has to be considered a very marginal concern. The other risks are zero - because ADs get all of their product from Rolex. There’s no chance of fake or stolen products getting into their supply chain, unless Rolex starts providing stolen/fake products.

So, risk is only limited to number 1, and that is a really (really) small risk!

Now let’s look at the grey market.There the risk is not just limited to number 1 - the risk is across all four buckets. All four risks are active.

You have the number 1 risk of the ‘bad actor’ knowingly selling products that are not authentic.

You also have the number 2 risk of GM dealers unknowingly selling products that are not authentic. Not every GM dealer is cut from the same cloth, and even the ‘professional’ ones can get fooled. A recent episode of CRM Jewelers had four different groups debating on the authenticity of a Daytona. An early episode had them reviewing a solid gold fake Patek (that ironically had a chrono function that didn’t work, but in an 18k case). If watch values remain high there will be more and more incentive for criminals and their like to create more credible representations that can fool MOST GM dealers.

Then there are the risks of stolen watches.

The number 3 risk of knowingly selling stolen watches is actually a limited one. Not everyone is willing to flog off stolen merchandise.

But the number 4 risk of unknowingly selling stolen watches is a real concern, and one that a ‘professional GM dealer’ cannot determine even if he/she can tell a fake watch from a mile. There are a lot of new/newer references being sold with no box and papers, and while most of those are NOT stolen definitely a number are.

Caveat emptor.

TL/DR:
- Yes, there is a risk that a genuine Rolex AD can sell you a fake watch. But it is a very small risk. Very small. Small enough to be rounded to zero. Rolex ADs will also not have ANY of the other risks (2,3,4).
- For a GM AD the risk of them knowingly selling you a fake watch can also be small if you focus on the most ‘trusted’ names that have a lot to lose. Outside those few names the risk rapidly increases. However, GM dealers also face risks from number 2,3 and 4 (risks that genuine Rolex ADs are literally at zero risk).

This is an outstanding and logical analysis, thank you. You break down how it is way more risky to buy from non-AD source.

[thesharkfactor]

Anytime I offer my grey dealer a watch he checks it out on the watch register. When I buy a used watch from him, it comes with a certificate saying it’s been checked, on the watch register for lost/stolen/insurance claims.
Safe.

[ricardo-sf]

like eveyrone already said -- buy the seller...

pick someone who has more to loose by selling you a replica than you do. -- i bought a watch from DavidSW -- he does tons of business on this forum and would stand to loose alot more than my $11k by selling a replica.

-- then you also need to know what to look for in a replica .. it helps if you've handled replica rolexes and know how to spot one. (i've handled high end replicas -- not just the cheap stuff from canal street). -- so i was able to verify for myself

i would not send a watch to RSC to have it authenticated -- the simplest test i can think of to verify authenticity is to wear the watch for 2 years, if its sitll working and all together after 2 years, its the real deal --- replicas always fall apart.

on a rolex every detail will be perfect, all replicas mess something up (less so everyday).

[goodolejr]

Do ADs that also sell pre-owned "pop the hood" to verify authenticity?